VOTE! – On “Golf Industry Standards”
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VOTE! – On “Golf Industry Standards”

VOTE! – On “Golf Industry Standards”
Enough already about Obama and Romney…it’s still 5 months away.  Let’s get down to voting on something about golf and something you can actually vote on right now!  This is a monumental day in the golf industry.  Ok…well not really…not like your vote today is going to be sent to Congress or anything.  But you never know…it might actually have an impact on the entire golf equipment business.  Why?  Because today you’re going to be voting on something consumers and industry insiders have been debating for a long time.  And that is “Golf Industry Standards”.  What do we mean by industry standards?  Read on…and be sure to VOTE!

Dude, what happened to my pitching wedge?

A foursome stands on the tee box of a par 3.  All four guys are about equal in terms of length and ability, so Jim, Chris, and Bill hit 6 iron onto the green.  Then Tom gets up with his brand new irons and hits the green with a 7 iron.  As Tom smirks and wipes the dirt off his club, the other three guys think to themselves, “Wow, those clubs must have some great new technology…Tom’s longer than ever!”

Sound familiar?  Whether you’re Jim or Tom, you’ve no doubt noticed that modern clubs are longer than their counterparts from days gone by.  The question is: why?  Some of you probably think that it must be all the new technology that companies are pouring into the clubs, right?  After all, that’s what we see in the ads: guys in white coats, fancy laboratories, computer models, scientists watching pros hit balls.  All that science is how they make the ball go farther…right?

WRONG!  You’re a club longer these days because the OEMs took your 6 iron and stamped a “7” on it.  I can hear your objections, “The OEMs wouldn’t do that!  There are standards!  A 7 iron is a 7 iron!”  WRONG AGAIN!  There are absolutely no standards in the golf industry…which, in this writer’s less-than-humble opinion, is a big problem.

The 4 Big Problems

Before I continue, let me show you just how far we are from having any standards.

Lie Angle – Depending on the manufacturer and the model, you could get a 6 iron that’s anywhere from 61 degrees to 62.5 degrees.  That means one iron’s “standard” is almost another iron’s “2 degrees up.”

Length – Variances of up to one inch in length.  Think this doesn’t matter?  Let me chop an inch off all your clubs and see what you think then.  Additionally, drivers have gotten significantly longer over the last few years.  If we go back to the late 70’s and early 80’s, the “standard” was 43”.  As recently as five years ago, one club fitter estimates that the average stock driver length was 45”.  In 2011, that same club fitter saw the average jump to 45.73”.  That’s 2.72″ inches longer than just 30 years ago.  And I know we are evolving as a species but I don’t think we have gotten 3″ taller as humans in just 30 years time.

Shaft Flex – This is the one that even informed consumers aren’t aware of, because, unlike loft, lie, and length, it’s very hard to measure.  There is NO STANDARD for what makes a shaft “stiff” or “regular.”  This has led to the OEMs making “stiff” shafts softer and softer to stroke the egos of the masses who want to play a stiff flex, but truly need something softer.  You can claim that this is helping the consumer, but I look at it as being no different than writing “32” on the waist of a fat man’s pants: a pleasant lie to make someone feel better instead of giving them the truth.

Loft – This is the real kicker.  Most OEMs have significant loft variances within their own lineup, and if we look industry-wide we can see pitching wedges as weak as 48 degrees and as strong as 42.5 degrees! This is almost a 6 degree difference.  So now going back to that 6 iron we were talking about, which is now stamped as a 7 iron, really should be stamped as a 4.5 iron. And this only looks at today; if we look at things from a historical perspective we see that even 48 degrees is stronger than pitching wedges used to be…you know, before the gap wedge was “invented.”  So be on the look out in the near future for a new club labeled GAP-GAP wedge, because golfers are going to need them.

How Did We Get Here?

So how did we get here?  Why are we seeing clubs with stronger lofts and longer shafts?  It all goes back to the two things that golfers want: distance and distance.  Imagine your average golfer going into the store to buy a new set of irons.  With apologies to the handful of outliers in the audience, EVERY GOLFER is going to walk out of that store with the irons that he hit the longest.  So what do you do if you’re an OEM whose job is to sell golf clubs?  You strengthen the loft and make the shaft longer, or, as I put it earlier, you stamp a “7” on a 6 iron.

Why Is This A Problem?

So why does this matter?  Why is this “a big problem”?  Primarily because it deceives the consumer and could convince them to buy new clubs under a false premise.  If a golfer was well fit for irons 5 years ago, assuming his swing hasn’t changed, those irons are still a good fit.  He is unlikely to see a major gain in distance with new irons…unless you jack up the loft and stretch the shaft.  You can see the same thing happening with the length of driver shafts as well: the old standard of 43″ has been replaced by 45” which has now been replaced by drivers 46” and longer.

Additionally, this lack of standards renders meaningless the language that most golfers use and understand, “I’m 2* upright,” “I’m +1/2 inch.”  2* upright based on what?  The 61* 6 iron or the one that’s 62.5*?  Do you want that extra half inch on top of the extra half inch the OEM already slapped on there for you?  Are you starting to see why this is a problem?

What Do The Golf Companies Have To Say About This?

So…why don’t we have any form of “Industry Standards” when it comes to lie, length, flex and loft?  That’s what we want to know as well.  That’s why in the interest of balance and fairness, I sent out requests to many of the major OEM’s (golf companies) to find out what they had to say on this topic.  Although, at the time of publication, only Wilson Golf responded.  The following responses come from Michael Vrska, Wilson Golf’s Global Director of R&D.

Q: Why is it that the OEMs can’t agree on standards:

A: “Golf OEM’s, and certainly Wilson Staff, care about our products and the players who use them, but we don’t care for or agree on a particular set of standards because each of us think we can do it better than the next guy.  The more standards and rules R&D is confined by, the less we can innovate for different player types.  The irons we make for Harrington, Barnes, Streelman and Lawrie require different specs than a guy or gal who has yet to break 100.”

Q: Do you think that the average consumer is helped or harmed by the lack of standards?

A: “I think they are helped greatly.  To look at it from an other-than-golf perspective…  Were consumers helped or harmed that Apple could look at portable music players with a general lack of standards they had to adhere to?  Were consumers helped or harmed that TV manufacturers were not locked into a standard 4:3 aspect ratio and standard resolution?  Competition and different options are great for the consumer.  Without that competition, innovation would slow or even stop.  I believe that would be true for golf clubs as well if R&D was more confined.  There are some smart engineers at Wilson, and other R&D groups as well, that live, breath, eat and sleep golf equipment and I want them turned loose to be as creative as possible.”

Q: Who benefits from the lack of uniformity?

A: “The consumer ultimately benefits.  I understand there can be some confusion when it comes to what may be the right loft or lie or shaft for a player, but launch monitors and custom fitting are wonderful tools that more players should take advantage of and can eliminate that confusion.  You can find out if your irons need to be bent 2o upright or are gapped properly for you.  There is a golf club head, shaft and set that will look, feel and perform best for every player; hit a few options and get fit to figure out what that is.”

My Response

Before I comment on his answers, I want to say that I have immense respect for Wilson Golf for actually responding to my questions.  They knew what they were getting into and they didn’t run from it.  That said: I don’t agree that changing specs is “innovating” or “creative,” nor am I suggesting that anyone be forced to play a tour pro’s clubs.  What I am suggesting is that every 6I be the same loft, length, and lie, so that I can compare apples to apples when I try different clubs, and that my fitting of “2 degrees up, +1/2 inch” translates from brand to brand.  And speaking of Apple, I take exception to his comparison between standard specs and Beta Max.  I’m not suggesting we force every OEM to use steel instead of titanium: simply that drivers be 45” so I know which one is the best, not which shaft is the longest.

What Does Golf Club Designer Tom Wishon Have To Say?

The next man we interviewed Tom Wishon, is not only one of the industries most highly respected members of the golf equipment industry he also dedicated his career to clubfitting research and development.  Wishon also headed up a panel some years ago made up of industry experts who tried to get the golf industry to commit to a standard of measurements.  His efforts were unfortunately unsuccessful.

Q: Why is it that the OEMs can’t agree on standards?

A: For one, they see no value to themselves to do so.  OEM’s only do things if they see benefit for themselves in it.  Hence the ONLY thing I have seen of this nature is when some of them pooled their resources to form a unified legal team to track down counterfeit clubs and factories that make them.   So far, no one has been able to impress upon them that there is any value to them in doing spec measurement standards.

There is nothing wrong with making the specs of your clubs to be whatever you think they should be – but there is something wrong with doing that and not saying anything about what those specs are.  If standards are nothing but an average for each specification, such as 45” is the standard for men’s driver length or 27* is the standard industry loft for a 5 iron, the OEM’s don’t want their specs to be labeled as being either over or under some standard.

Again, we do not need a STANDARD MEASUREMENT FOR ALL SPECIFICATIONS but it would be nice to have a STANDARD FORM OF MEASUREMENT for all the specifications of golf clubs – and then to have a repository of measurements of each company’s clubs all done using the standard form of measurement so that consumers could really compare specs of clubs to each other.  Some of this stuff we sort of already have – lofts, lies, face angles, lengths, offset, swingweights – they are mostly all listed for each club  in each model on each company’s website and really, these specs can be considered to be quite comparable.  Without a declared standard, we all pretty much measure loft, lie, face angle, offset, swingweight the same way.

But if you could add things like center of gravity location for the driver, 3 wood, 3 hybrid and 6 iron in each model, MOI of the driver, 3 wood, 3 hybrid and 6 iron in each model, actual shaft stiffness profile (like my measurements), grip diameter, and some others – well then you would have more helpful info.  And of course shafts is in a horrible condition now for any means to inform consumers how stiff this shaft is compared to that shaft.

Q: Do you think that the average consumer is helped or harmed by the lack of standards?

A: In some areas without a question consumers are hurt.  Shaft flex is one for sure.  I cannot imagine if I were a golfer without any real tech knowledge of clubs who was interested in one of these shafts that cost $200-300.  How can you possibly know if any shaft is going to match your swing without buying it?  Not many places have many of these high dollar shafts all in demo clubs for you to hit – and even if they do, the other specs on the club in which the expensive shaft is installed like the loft, lie, length, face angle, etc., probably don’t fit your swing so you can’t get a decent evaluation from hitting the shaft often times.

Then you have the OEM Drivers which are not really made to the loft that is printed or engraved on the head.  That’s a really unfortunate deal for consumers – to tell them one thing but knowingly not deliver that spec?

Q: Who benefits from the lack of uniformity?

A: I’d love to say no one does.  But the sheer fact the OEM’s refuse this tells you something loud and clear.  Keeping golfers in the dark also can keep the golfer searching to buy the next club and the next club after that in the HOPE that he’s going to find the right one that helps him really hit the ball better.  Imagine how bad it would be for an OEM to help a golfer find the perfect golf club for his swing the very first time.  They’d likely not see him as a customer for more clubs ever again or at the least, his buying frequency would be slowed down.

And I bet the farm that the number of “club ho’s” who buy new clubs every year because they love equipment, they love to have the latest thing, they love to keep searching is a big number, so big that if it were reduced by 1/3 the OEM’s would get measurably hurt in terms of annual revenue.  Not having any way to quantitatively compare clubs, shafts, clubheads certainly could be said to perpetuate club ho’ism and all the additional sales it brings to the OEMs.

What Does A Master Club Fitter Have To Say About This?

I also sought out the opinion of Nick Sherburne the Master Club Fitter/Builder at Club Champion, on those same questions.  As a club expert who is unaffiliated with any particular OEM, I thought he might have a unique perspective.

Q: Why don’t OEMs agree on a common set of standards?

A: “I guess there is no real reason to need a standard.  They most likely set their standards as individual companies for a few different reasons:

To differentiate themselves from each other.

To create their advantage.  Examples could be making lofts stronger or making clubs longer to hit the ball farther, or conversely shorter clubs to add control.”

Q: Do you think that consumers are helped or harmed by the lack of standards?

A: “It’s definitely hard for the average consumer to know what they are buying without lots of research or a helping hand from a premium club fitter.  As equipment evolves, what a golfer needs can change over time without them even knowing it.  For example, a golfer may be fit for clubs that are one degree upright and then two years later buy a new set and have them built to the same specifications.  However, if the standard has changed that golfer may need something flatter or something more upright, it depends on which clubs they wind up buying.

Standards could help the consumer, but they also may make golfers feel like they don’t need to be properly fit for clubs and we know that the benefits of proper fitting are apparent at this point.”

I think Nick raises an excellent point: this lack of standardization does put a lot of importance on the club fitter.  Seems like I can’t write a single article without beating that drum that tells you, “Go get fit!”  Oh well.  Back on point, though, it is the “average” golfer that I am concerned about, the guy who might get fit through a big box, but definitely doesn’t have the advantage of working with a place like Club Champion.  This is the guy who, in my opinion, is being taken advantage of by the games that are being played with modern golf clubs.

Conclusion

So where do we go from here?  How do we change this?  Well, if you agree with this article and the statements within, I highly suggest you cast your vote, asking for more “Golf Industry Standards”.  And if you don’t agree with this article, well you can cast your vote that you don’t think their needs to be more “Golf Industry Standards”.

Either way you should vote and have your voice be heard.  You can cast your vote below:

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      joro

      9 years ago

      One thing for sure is that reading all these posts is that people cannot figure it out. Simple, I don’t care who you are or how you play if you cannot figure it out how far the ball goes without industry studs. and numbers you must have a real problem and not a very good player.

      How about Mr. X hits his 7 iron 170 and you hit your 7 iron 140, that must be a real problem. What I am saying is that if you like your clubs, figure it out and forget what the number says.

      Reply

      joro

      9 years ago

      Interesting that this surfaces again. Hey what is the difference, sure I think they should put loft on the club rather than a number, but they are trying to sell clubs and face it, a PW that goes farther is all most hacks care about. No matter the PW is 45 degrees, the hack hits it farther than his pal who haw a 48 degree PW. So the hack is hitting a 9 iron, he doesn’t care cause it says PW. It bothers the 48 degree player so he goes out and buys hack #1 model PW.

      Thats the way it is and it sells clubs.

      Reply

      Smorency

      9 years ago

      Interesting vote. I vote for truth and facts.
      I do not think that standards is the solution. And who would make sure that standards get respected. More problems.
      There are standards in the industry, they are called inches, degrees, grams…
      Companies can be as creative as much as they want if they don’t try to fool the consumer.
      They can put jumbo grips on all their clubs if they want, as long as we know what they are and the specs are shown.
      Iron 6 and 2* flat mean nothing without a reference. Iron 6 is now a generic like a driver.
      Nomenclature is a problem.
      We do not expect a driver to have x degrees of loft standard? It says in it 10.5* on it.
      Fine, if it is.
      Now, in 2015, do not expect to have a standard 46* P wedge in your set.
      We have to learn to read the info. It’s all there (but not always accurate, we know).
      Would be nice to see it on the club though. Like they do for wedges. 58* / 10* we could see 6-31* on the club.
      Do club fitters put a sticker with new specs on the clubs they bend so next owner knows are far he is from “standards”. Mizuno has flatter lies. Who knows that. We want numbers and degrees.
      BUT, WE HAVE TO KNOW the REAL shaft FLEX. that translate in real numbers.
      Frequency is in the right direction.
      Regular or stiff mean as much as heavy, cold, +2 long, lite, or PW

      We would like numbers we understand on the club, then, OEM can call the club what they want: driver, hybrid 4 or Putter.
      Of course, this will bring the next question: what would be the extra cost for all this and who will pay for it.

      Reply

      Misunderstood

      10 years ago

      There is only one answer here. Any other answer than yes to needing industry standards is either someone corrupt in their morals or someone to ignorant to really be answering this question. A 7 iron never has any business going over 150 yards period! A driver has no business going over 44 inches period! There’s no defending a position other than this unless you are a criminal or an idiot. Sorry about this insulting tone I’ve taken but I’ve been preaching this for 15 years. I know a lot more about club physics and swing plane than the average person and it is so obvious to me what’s happening, that it makes me furious. I currently had to go out and buy clones, because I wanted to go back to a more classic 47.5* Pitching Wedge. I’d actually like a 50*. I refuse to go out and buy new OEM irons based on how far they go. A perfect example of this is the RBZ and RBZ Tour. Why is the Tours 5 iron 1/2″ shorter? The only think you need in irons is a consistant length and gap between clubs and I guess feel would be important. Everything else is bull**** meant to keep everything confusing so the OEMs can sell more clubs. I sick of it. I want to play better golf and the only thing stopping me is the immoral practice. Just another situation where the Big Companies are interested only in the bottom line!

      Reply

      RAT

      11 years ago

      NO standards- This leaves the competition working to out do the other! There would be no choice other than name and color.I like to pick what I want in the loft and etc.GO WILSON STAFF!!

      Reply

      John

      11 years ago

      I think there are other considerations. In Asia where i am most outlets do not have professionals, nor club fitters. Only sales assistants who know nothing about golf clubs and what you see is what you get. They have no info on length, loft and lies. The last set I bought in Thailand “Callaways” turned out to be 1/2 inch shorter than standard. According to the charts I should have 1/2 longer than standard. So, I am currently communicating with a large Retailer in the US and trying to buy by remote control, seeking advise from their club fitters. If there were standards, golfers like me would have some idea what “may” suit us best, and what we were really considering buying. We could also do a more realistic comparison between brands and models.
      You are right if this happens manufacturers would no doubt sell less equipment. In Australia companies like Cobra would come out and fit you for the clubs. Here, unfortunately I do not have that luxury.

      Reply

      RAT

      12 years ago

      I think the problem is TM and others are stuck with plenty of castings that can’t compete with let’s say (WILSON STAFF) that advertises longer than !!!!!.The reason we are having this discussion is someone other than TM came up with this idea and can back it up.
      New designs with the ability to understand the specs has opened the eyes of more golfers and this creates competition .To have standards would snuff out the manufacturing competition to only a few..NO RULES keeps everyone trying harder to make theirs better than the others..
      Maybe it’s just like you can’t be all things to all people, do your on thing keeps manufacture striving for more than just looks. NO STANDARDS is the way to go

      Reply

      joro

      12 years ago

      THis is really funny. Standards, and where did that come from and why is anyone so upset to make a big deal out of it. Legal clubs regardless of what the length is, loft, grip size, etc. is not a problem, why make it one.

      I have been in the business for over 50 yrs as a player first and then a clubmaker, and now winding down in club repair and teaching. I have never ever figured out where std. came from, but I guess we do need a square one to start. What is one person std. is not everyones std. nor does everyone hit the ball the same.

      Get over it Golf Spy, it is not an issue.

      Reply

      tiger168

      12 years ago

      I vote yes, but, the standard needs to be redefined.

      Such as using the robot to swing a 7 iron with a standard loft/shaft length/speed for 150 yards, as an example.

      And more strict manufacture standard deviation of no more than +/- 5.0%. A 10.5 degree driver +5.0%=11.0 degree; -5.0%=10.0 degree. A 9.5 degree driver +5.0%=9.98 degree; -5.0%=9.05 degree. Right now even with the big name drivers, the numbers are all over the place. A rep told me they sent 130 drivers to a top player in the world and he actually tried every single one and narrowed down to 3 that he kept. I hope that was not exaggerated.

      In our top fitter in the area whom fitted and build clubs for amateurs and pros told me my Titleist D3 9.5 has an effective loft of 10.1 and my Adams F12LS 9.5 was 9.6. And the launch monitor proof those facts (same shaft).

      Therefore, when the industry encourage all players to get “fitted” they really mean for us to “find” the right shaft/head combination to “maximize” the result, not necessary “find” the right number and then “order” the club with that specific spec. Because, when I did that, the specified club that I ordered, came and the numbers were completely different from the “fitted” numbers. THAT, is the reason i am voting for the “industry standard”, nothing more, nothing less.

      Now a days, I don’t buy a club without knowing exactly what I am getting, especially the longer clubs.

      So when the next time some one in your group asked “What club did you hit?” I will reply “my 178 yard club”, rather than “my 6 iron”. Because the 6 iron really doesn’t mean anything by itself.

      Reply

      JJK

      12 years ago

      I voted “Yes” on principle. The lack of standards, and sales tactics used within the industry, undoubtedly make it harder for the average consumer to make informed decisions on golf equipment. Many have already hit the nail on the head — the manufacturers are significantly more profitable by exploiting an industry free of regulations on the characterization and nomenclature of essential equipment aspects.

      What do you get when you add a splash of good old-fashioned deceit, to a heaping spoonful of the endless “mine’s bigger/better/longer” conquest of the male ego? With profits and market share at stake, I wouldn’t expect the guys making the money to start lobbying in the best interest of the consumer any time soon. Even the clubfitters are benefiting from the current state of affairs…

      Reply

      Doc

      12 years ago

      I can really just imagine the fun OEM’s would have trying to stick a loft number on an iron…say a wedge, and assume it is supposed to be 48* (according to any proposed new standard of putting loft numbers on the irons replacing just the iron number).They then would have very little room to “squirm”…. .. .. I’d be the first to scream. “hey, my 48* wedge is out of tolerance , it’s 46*, or 50* or whatever. Compound that by multiplying the whole complete set of irons possibly being out of tol…Noooo, I don’t believe that system would fly far…..I do like the animal labels though… I would order a Barracuda wedge, just for the “bite”…lol
      Doc

      Reply

      dick

      12 years ago

      First, I confirm I voted yes.
      Second, I played with a gentlemen last weekend who had just purchased a new set of Ping Irons. On the 11th tee, a par three (he hit a 6, I hit an 8) He asked if my irons were longer than standard, I told him that there was no standard, but based on most manufactures and Golfworks chart, my irons are 1/2″ over. We proceeded to compare clubs and they’re about the same. Height wise we’re similar, both about 6′ 4″, major difference he has a chest size about 42, mine about 54 long. I will also mention that I assemble my own clubs. Self fitting started with some basic measurements, available on the internet. A lot of time with a homemade lie board and about 20 sets of irons. All but seven sets are for sale, the others I just can’t bear to part with.
      I hit a men’s regular flex shaft in my driver, teaching pro recently suggested I should be swinging a stiff shaft like his in his driver. First my swing speed is about 95 mph, average is probably lower than 95, second when comparing drivers, his stiff shaft has much more deflection than mine. His driver swing weight D2 my driver swing weight E1 (I like swinging sledge hammers).
      The OEM’s benefit from no standardization is the can claim my 6 iron is long than his. From the consumer standpoint it helps my ego (not mind, just the average consumer) I can hit a 7 iron when you have to hit a six iron. I would like to see standardization applied across the board and especially when it comes to shafts.

      Reply

      Robert Allen

      12 years ago

      A very good article. I feel we consumers are being conned all the time. Not everyone can afford expert club fitting so make do with what we have and dream about new equipment and buy magazines and read about them instead

      Reply

      Jim

      12 years ago

      Thank for the nice article. I agreed that there should be standard of measurements. If we don’t have standards, we, the consumers, are screwed.

      Reply

      jmiller065

      12 years ago

      This is probably one of those subjects that just makes me upset with the OEMs when they make blatant lies of distances and then in the fine print back it up with stats that no one can achieve on average. “17 yards longer” (shhhh that’s at a 150mph ball speed up against last years model for the 3 fairway wood). I don’t see how tricking a consumer with fine print statements about something is ethical but obviously it’s legal because sales people and major companies do it all of the time. OEM don’t want a standard because it goes against their ability to sell a club that a person really doesn’t need. Plus it would hurt their marketing lines to give people false hope. Any one that knows equipment knows I am taking gabs at TM as they seem to be the marketing kings because they find the most creative way to lie legally.

      I am in no way suggesting that the USGA / R&A limit the length, lie, loft of every golf club, but there needs to be a unwritten rule as to what “standard” means and is interpreted by. When I describe my specs I never use the word “standard” because it doesn’t exist. If you ask for my specs on irons you are going to get a long list from 3 iron down the 60*. I am exact and give you the physical numbers in length, lie, loft so there is no confusion. It would be nice if I could go “standard length”, “1 degree flat”, “standard lofts” and have everyone be on the same page, but that is just not going to happen I don’t think.

      Tolerances for golf equipment will make you want to vomit, swing weight irons out of the box they likely bounce from iron to iron +/- 2 points from the listed spec. Club have one at D0 then the next one down at D4 who knows for sure, they normally come out lighter more often then heavier then specs.

      Driver head loft is crazy, most time drivers are tweaked 1 or 2* closed anymore to help the “average golfer” not slice, well an 8.5* at 2* closed, played to square now has roughly 10.5* of effective loft probably not what some people really needed anyways when buying a 8.5* driver but for the stroking ego people you bet 10.5* is a better fit. To top it off the +/-2* (more often on the plus side for loft) then add in the effective loft of face angle you can have anything.

      I can’t justify paying $300 for something completely random in terms of specifications. I paid $225 for my tour van driver head and actually saved money to get what I wanted, only issue with that is you need the channels to access the tour van stuff.

      Reply

      Alexlefty

      12 years ago

      Intetersting question and I agree with the relevance of it in terms of having a standard of shaft flex – like for instance listing the cpm-number for each shaft offered. Soo easy to include.

      However, being a lefty, if I could mandate any standardisation in the golf industry, then that would be that each club manufacturer and retailer should offer any club they make or sell right handed, also left handed, and for men and women. I am not asking for racks and racks of all sets in stock or left hand lady flex muscle backs at every retailer, but not like today either, where not even Pings own fitting cart include more then one super-upright I20 LH head. Or the worst exampe in golf – Mizuno not even making one single wood/hybrid of any kind left hand anymore.

      This is perhaps the most overseen and unfair type of non-standardisation imo.

      Alex

      Reply

      Jerry Foley

      12 years ago

      Women have been lied to forever on dress sizes and some mens brands have followed as well, i.e. a size women’s 6 is really an 8 in many brands. So if an iron manufacturer thinks his “7 iron” might be easier to hit if in reality it is a 6 iron, i.e. swing easier to hit it same distance they might figure most golfers could swing better when swinging easier. It’s a logical idea. The problem they create however is putting pressure on those who don’t move their designations around. Those manufacturers could get branded as not hitting the same club as far and giving the impression you need to swing “harder” to hit them the same distance. I A/B’d two drivers a while back. One was a TM R something vs an Adams something or other. The Adams shaft was an inch longer and my clubhead speed was about 2-4 MPH greater with the Adams but the hitting booth showed both drivers performing equally in overall distance. In the end I stayed with my Callaway that was several years older because I hit it straight and can move the ball around where I want. Same for my older Mizuno irons that still perform well. I don’t believe equipment changes will save a bad swing. Virtually every playing partner I have has switched clubs several times with no appreciable positive result. Some however “do” hit it deeper into the woods with their new technology.

      Reply

      John Rogers

      12 years ago

      The big thing is to have stds for Graphite shafts, that is a big problem. One companies reg is anothers stiff, or vice versa. THis is a problem cause the things can be very expensive and to have one installed in your driver or a set of Irons is a crap shoot for most people, an expensive crap shoot. But, alas, it will never happen.

      As far as the rest go, every company has strong lofted game improvement clubs and old std lofted “Pro” irons. I have though for years the lofts should be on the clubs. King Cobra was the first “strong” Irons I can remember and they fooled the public into thinking they were longer with King Cobras, well, they were, at least 1 club and more.

      All in all, so what, lofts are just a number but we should know what they are. The rest like length of the shaft is really immaterial and in a lot of cases doesn’t amount to a hill of beans.

      Reply

      TwoSolitudes

      12 years ago

      Yes.

      OEMs should drop the iron numbers altogether and just stamp the lofts on the heads. At least then you would know what you are playing. Maruman and PRGR are actually making sets with 10 irons now to keep their PWs from playing at 40*. My bet is that we start seeing that in North American sets before long.

      Shaft lengths and lies would be hard to standardize, but it sure would be nice to know what +/- 1″ actually meant across the board.

      Reply

      wlrobins

      12 years ago

      As my old Boss used to say
      “you cant manage what you don’t measure”
      I do believe we should be calling a spade “a bloody spade”, not an earth moving device (that could be anything from a bulldozer to an excavator)
      I do agree with some of the comments earlier about putting the loft on the clubs like they do wedges.
      you can call an iron anything you like but it will still only be xyz degrees loft, and that just wont change whether it is labelled 5 iron or 6 iron.
      so yes, the golf industry does need agreed upon standards of measurements.

      Reply

      David

      12 years ago

      I am strongly in favour of Golf Industry Standards
      The industry badly needs a set of standards not just loft lie and length but swing weight and grip size. Shaft profile numbering system should replace flex (I don’t mind which one). Manufactures can continue to dupe the general golfing by selling 5 irons that are 4 irons but should be require to warn the customer that the equipment is not standard.
      Using standards would ensure that -1/2 inch 1 degree flat means the same thing to every manufacturer.
      I have personal experience of this problem. I bought a set of Burner 1.0, doing my homework I knew that the standard set specification was unique with the longer irons having progressive longer shafts. With this in mind I ordered the clubs a quarter inch short. When I received the clubs I checked and found them much shorter than expected it turned out that the custom fit make the adjustments based on a different starting length. If two departments of Taylormade can’t agree the length of a club then how can the golfing consumer ever make an informed purchasing decision?

      Reply

      Mikerio

      12 years ago

      I can recall when I changed my irons from, funnily, Wilson staff di7’s to ping g15’s……at my local course particular shots I had wired suddenly were met with confusion. I short par 4 I play would have been driver and easy 8 iron, or blast a 9 onto the green……I use a g15 pitching wedge now to get to the green…..I used an 8 iron once and hit it (granted dead straight) onto the fairway behind the green I was aiming for. Wow I thought I am now superman…..or I’ve got proper jacked lofts. I love my g15s but your onto something here. We definitely need to standardise shaft flex and at least tell the truth more instead of bending it…..or in some cases lie!

      Though it’s sites like yours that at least educates us hackers into being pointed in the right direction of good quality equipment……well done and thank you golf spy on another (!) great article.

      Reply

      DocS

      12 years ago

      I can see why the OEM’s are dancing with “mine is better than yours” mentality. The standard I would like to see is in the shaft calculations. I see clients whose OEM shaft is completely wrong for their swing. If the formula for the shafts were standardized the weekender purchasing a OEM set might get something closer to what he really needs. I realize this would make the golfer and the store seller more responsible to each other, as to what flex ,etc. There in lies another rub. Does the average golfer really put the effort in to learn about his tools? Is the Seller really knowledgeable enoght to help rather than sell. I think the shaft standard could be simplified enough for both to understand each other.

      Reply

      Matt A

      12 years ago

      After reading some of the comments I still do not see an issue with the ruling bodies setting a standard starting point for all the variables listed above. Nothing is stopping a manufacture from making clubs with different Lofts and Lie they just have to name the club properly. The USGA/R&A can specify that a PW is 49°+/- 1°. if a manufacture makes a 46° club then they cannot call it a PW. Seems simple.

      Reply

      Kip

      12 years ago

      standards are good but maybe we are being too stringent on what those standards should be. Instead of insisting a PW be 48* we should insist that a PW be between 45-49*.
      Now length/ lie should be uniform, so we can know what 1″ long and 1* upright means.
      And shafts need to have their own set of standards, and an easy way to do that is instead of regular, stiff, and x-stiff, they should go to a number system,5.0, 5.5, 6.0 and these numbers should mean the same from company to company.
      Driver lofts? if the number is stamped on the club, it should be the correct loft. if that club is adjustable maybe they should stamp it 8-10. That one doesn’t concern me as much as a wedge being stamped the correct loft.

      Reply

      GolfSpy Tim

      12 years ago

      I’d like to see companies just putting the loft on their clubs and no number – I love how Scor has done that with their wedge sets.

      My friends will say they hit their 7 iron a certain distance and ask me how far I hit mine… well crap, mine isn’t the same loft as theirs, but suddenly I’m a lesser golfer cause my 7 iron doesn’t go as far as theirs.

      I think standards would be GREAT

      I think it’s BRILLIANT that companies have started to realize they don’t have to follow any standards and they’ve used that to their marketing advantage

      Reply

      Msp1404

      12 years ago

      I dont think that they should do away with the numbers on the clubs and only have lofts. There are a lot of beginners who rely on the numbers as their clubs selection. Putting only lofts on a club would just be confusing, especially for beginners. I think it would even be confusing for me if i had one brain fart and picked the wrong one it could cost me. A comprimise would be to put both like the Cleveland CG16’s. As for not hitting your irons the same distance as your friends, a simple explanation would be to tell them that the lofts are different. Then grab your 6 iron and put closer to the pin, that will shut them up.

      Reply

      R. P. Jacobs II

      12 years ago

      Tim, couldn’t agree more on lofts…MSP104 has a good point regarding beginers, though I don’t know that a beginer learning the wrong thing or learning that the 7i in his second set of clubs was a 6i in his first is such a good thing…We’re not talking rocket science here & his point of having both would be ok for those who need it, if it were consistent across the industry, which I don’t see happening…..

      Anyone who’s seen my postsd knows that I’m minimalist, so the less on a club the better, though if it helps a beginer to enjoy the game more, go for it…….

      Fairways & Greens 4ever……….

      Reply

      Paul

      12 years ago

      IIRC, Wishon has in the past noted the effects of roll on drivers and the havoc they play with the effective loft. For instance, a 9* driver may have an effective loft of 10*+ on the top 1/3 of the face due to face roll, and again IIRC he designs drivers with no face roll specifically to negate this issue. Question becomes, then, if you’d prefer a standard design (i.e. set lofts, no roll, or a specific degree of roll) or a set measuring standard (i.e. driver faces are measured for loft at _________ relative point on the face for every driver). As far as the people who are upset with the true specs of their equipment differing from labeled specs, I think you may be attributing the discrepancies to willful deception when instead this is really just a quality control issue. The vendors who manufacture clubs for OEMs are certainly not perfect, and they all have tolerance windows for the product. Frankly, when you’re talking about something that is often hand-polished, like a driver or hybrid face, expecting every club to finish at exact spec if absolutely unrealistic. A 9.0-10.0 window is simply what is achievable for, say, a 9.5* driver in many cases? Is that ideal? No. Is it unfortunate? Yes. Should the major outliers (say 8.0* or 11.1* if we’re targeting 9.5) be remarked upon and eliminated? Yes. But when club tooling changes and wears over time, and when people play a major role in the finishing process during manufacturing, screwups will happen.

      Reply

      RAT

      12 years ago

      I agree with R.P. Jacobs,Shaft flex in numbers that are understandable and mean the same no matter which manufacture.But then again this is a way of getting people to try out the new product, no standards is my vote!

      Reply

      Anthony D

      12 years ago

      I do a little long drive, before I really started to play golf.
      I play S flex in a real 8deg, from a longdrive shaft company. (previously I was using R flex, same company shaft)
      Now that I am more serious about playing I cannot go to a shop and buy a driver, because they all have too much loft (even the 8.5deg) the heads and shafts are too light. My spin numbers go through the roof. All I can do is spend top dollar on exotic shafts and hope.
      Also a good reason for them to force adjustable down our throats.
      FYI for you adjustable guys, have you seen how much shaft is in contact with your driver? Not much.
      Also all that fitting gear is adding important weight that would be better served elsewhere..

      Reply

      T.Green

      12 years ago

      There greatly needs to be some standardization in loft and shaft flex. i remember buying an r7 5-wood with their stock stiff and it ended up CPMing in between regular and senior…the driver lofts are another big one. i get dogged sometimes for playing a 12 degree (makes a damn good strong 3 off the deck) but i know myself that many 10.5s are 11 or weaker. The manufacturers are basically just skewing data in order to compliment their marketing. adding an inch to the shaft length is just giving the robot extra speed, not advancing technology, its only experimental error in my eyes.

      Reply

      Golfspy Matt

      12 years ago

      I appreciate all the comments (even those that don’t agree with me…maybe especially those).

      I’m very interested to hear the arguments against standardization. I do find some of them persuasive, though, with regard to lofts, my “issue” is that it is deceitful to jack up the lofts. We (meaning those who really know and care about golf equipment) can be snide and refer to standardization as “hand holding” but I deal with the average golfer every day and he knows NOTHING about his clubs. Literally, nothing. Ask him what flex his iron shafts are and he has to look. So, in my opinion, when you (the OEM) jack up his lofts and make his 6 iron say “7” on it, you are lying to him and preying on his ignorance. To me, that’s not ok. It isn’t that I’m trying to roll back technology, it isn’t that I want more “bureaucracy,” it’s simply that I want golfers (the average guys and girls I deal with every day) to understand that there is no magic bullet, you can’t buy more distance. Again, you can say, “Well, they should learn about their equipment and know the specs,” but I feel that the simpler, more realistic, and more honest answer is to either standardize or, as many have suggested, stamp lofts on the sole.

      Reply

      RP Jacobs II

      12 years ago

      Sorry Matt… Thought T wrote it…Kudos on the article…Agree on some, disagree on other points, but well written & thought provoking…Great thread!!….Fairways & Greens 4ever…..

      Reply

      Golfspy Matt

      12 years ago

      Richard,

      The only reason your error offends me is that there weren’t nearly enough grammatical errors for this to be T’s article. Hahaha.

      All the best.

      GolfSpy T

      12 years ago

      Listen Matt. I’ll have you no my typos have made me, for better or worse a living legend. Their are thousands of people who come to this sight every month just to correct my grammer.

      I’m awesome, and everybodies knows it, so you can go suck a bag of ducks.

      Mikerio

      12 years ago

      Is sucking bags of ducks an American thing (dude)……anyway cheers for what I will now tell guys and gals in work when I deliver a project a little late…….cheers T ye bag’o duck sucking mutha you!

      leeh

      12 years ago

      As a hobby club builder, I see this alot. People say my buddy just got a new set of whatever brand irons and he is hitting it longer than ever. I try to explain the same things you just pointed out. I keep a set of Cleveland VAS irons that I played with for 15 years around to demonstrate the difference. I especially agree with the shaft flex argument and use a frequency meter to show people what I’m talking about. Most people aren’t club geeks though and don’t understand or even know about the differences. Another reason to find a competent club fitter and trust them to do the best job of fitting you.

      Reply

      Matt

      12 years ago

      I should add that having a standard does not mean that the manufacture cannot deviate from the standard it means that if standard for a 3i is 21d loft and you make one that is 20d that is fine, you just have to say you did for all to see. Same with lie angle 59d standard but you can make the lie whatever you just have to have a place to start from.

      Reply

      RON

      12 years ago

      my freind got this new driver , it said 8.5 on it, then he took it to someone who has machine to tell what the real loft is and it was 10.8 degrees, UNFREEGIN BELEIVABLE, It was a ping g20 driver. The golf club industry today is a JOKE . The reason is believe it or not is because the game is way over crowded today. Every guy and his sister plays today, so they have to make and ship as many clubs out as possible, PS Way too many pga tour events on TV and on over 3 hrs each day.

      Reply

      RP Jacobs II

      12 years ago

      This is my biggest Peeve!!!!!!… The guy buys an 8.5* & turns out to be a 10.8*….C’mon!!!!.. And this is from a very well respected OEM…I don’t even play their stuff(though I do have an I20 outa the bag…great club BTW) & I’m always given ’em kudos for being “different” from the usual suspects…Are they really?….Or is their “outa spec” number just a little lower?….Fairways & Greens 4ever….

      Reply

      Frank

      12 years ago

      I feel the pain. I was fitted with a matrix ozik x con 7 shaft with a nakashima 9 degreee head and was told the reason my fitter uses nak heads is the uncanty ability that their 9 degree is 9 degree. unfortuantely I didn’t want to spend 700 on a club so i went and grabbed the 9 Degree tour RBZ figuring I can adjust down the loft 1.5 if it was over stated (I knwo the face opens as well that another story but something I wasn’t too worried about) . Take the RBX to have the X con installed and low and behold 11.25. WTF come on man. Yes the marketing is there for a person who has ego issues and wants to hit what the tour hits and yes its helps the average Joe get the ball in the air and possibly return purchases but it’s also the consumers respionsibility to get the facts straight about what they should be playing. I don’t know maybe it’s me but I research everything I buy especially golf equipment and the cost we shell out for things

      Matt

      12 years ago

      Michael Vrska = Marketing spinster.

      Reply

      Golfer Burnz

      12 years ago

      WWOTMD? What would Old Tom Morris do? How about a standardized golf ball, nah that doesn’t work either…

      Reply

      robmailman

      12 years ago

      this is exactly why you should get fitted and know your spec’s everybody, when i got my vr 2 blades i had them bent 2 up and 2 weak from the old standard’s from 10 or so year’s ago,( for example, my 3 iron is 23 degree’s instead of 21 degree’s and so on down to my pw which is 49 degree’s), and i had them checked again to be sure when i finally got them. the green’s on my home course are all elevated so every little trick in the book help’s. alway’s have your club’s checked out no matter what, no oem has a set policy because they all think their product is superior to the next guy on the shelf, (another example) i ordered a new cleveland classic driver this year with a, 270 gram head, 9 degree loft, aldila dvs 60 x flex, standard length, which should be 45 inches right ? no! it’s now 45.75, which i will have to cut down when i regrip my driver, so alway’s check your spec’s when you buy club’s, even custom ordered toy’s. see you out there, rob.c.

      Reply

      Augustine

      12 years ago

      There are no stabdards in the clothing industry when it comes to size labeling, you learn to look for the actual chest/shoulder/waist/inseam measurements for a better fit. Better yet even one pair of 34″ pants will fit differently than another with the same measurement because they were meant to be worn tight/loose depending on the designers target clientele.

      Same with golf clubs. A GI iron set is geared towards high handicapper who most likely have a swing fault coming over the top and more likely to have a weak glancing blow producing a slice. So the “standard” loft/lie/length for this type of player would be stronger lofts (to compensate for loss distance) and more upright lie (to compensate for more draw biased), and longer shaft (kind of like clubbing up to anticipate a less than optimal hit but still carry a certain distance). Inverse is true for better players irons. So if you are a good golfer wanting to use GI irons (or vice versa) then get fit so the clubs fit YOUR swing!

      Most golf club specs are available online and if a golfer really wants their clubs to fit their game then they will get fitted regardless of what the “standard” specs say. Just like if you want to look good in a suit you’ll get it tailored…

      Now the real problem is the QC in the OEM equipment where The actual specs of the golf club are nowhere near the printed specs – I think the high tolerances set by OEM is a bigger concern than what some label says on the shaft or club head!

      Reply

      Pete

      12 years ago

      I can see the argument for shaft flex, but if you’re talking about built clubs — lie/loft/length/swing weight particularly — I think this article is trying to drum up something out of nothing. I have no problem with a set of players’ irons having a 31* 6i and a 47* PW, and I have no problem with a set of SGIs (say, the Rocketballz Irons) going 27* and 44*. If anything, just start stamping lofts on the club instead of numbered designations. Regarding lie and length, these specs are posted by every manufacturer on their websites. It’s 2012. If you can’t figure out that your 61* lie angle club bent 1* upright equates to a 63* lie angle club bent 1* flat, then please exit stage left. Clarity is fine, and shaft flex parameters are in desperate need of more. Complete hand holding is unnecessary.

      Reply

      Matthew

      12 years ago

      Im in total agreement with you Pete. Lofts are the only thing that matters, not the number on the club. When I research new clubs I have had 0 problems finding the lofts/lies for each iron set, and for the rest you can be fit in a matter of minutes and have the clubs adjusted. I cringe every time I see this argument come up because, as was said in the beginning of the article, 48* was even strong for a PW when it first came out. Eventually I could see PW breaking the 40* barrier, and even then it won’t matter because the set will still have a weaker lofted 120yd club(or whatever) to fill the gap.

      Now that my rant is over I do think adopting a shaft system similar to Project X or Miyazaki (preferred) would be ideal for consistency, especially in driver shafts.

      Also very good article. Awesome to see input from Wishon and the guy from Wilson.

      Reply

      Matt

      12 years ago

      I am going to have to say that i generally disagree with the article. I think from a business prospective standardization is harmful. what seperates OEM’s from eachother is the lofts, lie, and lengths. custom fitting is now almost a necesity, and now the standard “2* up or flat” etc. has to be different for every OEM. I have personally been fitted for almost all the OEM’s and keep the spec sheets in my golf bag, and yes there are some differences between them. A simple fix to the 7 iron = a 6 iron is to just learn your new distances, once you get those down it will be like nothing ever happend. also the stronger lofts with a 7 iron would give a player more confidence. Lastly i dont blame OEM’s for new changes, golf is an ever changing sport and if we hadnt stoped changing we would be still plaing with hickory shaft and persimmon clubs.

      Reply

      RP Jacobs II

      12 years ago

      Some salient points…Well stated….Fairways & Greens 4ever…….

      Reply

      Justin

      12 years ago

      Tom Wishon has his Shaft Bend Profile System, Hireko Golf has their Dynamic Shaft Fitting Index (which was co-created by Wishon), Golfsmith has their Recommended Swing Speed Rating (again, co-created by Wishon) and GolfWorks has the Maltby Shaft Playability Factor. There is PLENTY of research being done by outside agencies (is “agency” the right word? I don’t know…) that can help the consumer. They just aren’t using it. How would someone feel knowing that that ultra-cool shaft that’s hot on the PGA Tour (and going for $300) is comparable to a $40 model? No one wants their ego bruised. If a company makes a club at $299 and it’s found it’s exactly the same as a club that’s $100… how do they convince the buyer they should spend the extra $199? They’re afraid of that. If a person is so bugged about it, they can take their gear to get it measured by a fitter. I wonder what the percentage of golfers that actually gives a rat’s @ss is… in my group, I’m the only one. Makes me wonder what the percentages are across ALL golfers.

      Andrew

      12 years ago

      I think shaft flex should be standardized (where possible, see below) but the variety of available specifications is required in some instances, like lie. What are you to do if all lies are standard and you cannot bend your cast club to the lie you need because it will only bend 1 or 2 degrees? Now, you can go find another similar head with an off-the-rack lie closer to what you need and go from there. Within subsets of club types, aside from off-the-rack measurements, iron club heads are nearly commodities (especially cast heads). MGS’s own testing proves that out by showing there is a very small performance window that almost all clubs fall into regardless of manufacturer.

      Big issues crop up when you want to standardize graphite shafts, to the point that some manufacturers (i.e. nVentix) are saying you cannot compare their shafts using “standard” simple procedures (like frequency) since the bend profile along the length is so different than anything else available. Now we need a new standard that equalizes the properties properly, something like robot testing at set loft, lie, length, COR (or CT), MOI, CG, AoA, mass and club head speed values in order to provide normalized ball speed, spin rate and launch angle. Even then, the numbers don’t mean much if you do not release the club the same way it was tested or don’t use a head that matches the test head. So, as you say, “go get fit”.

      Reply

      R. P. Jacobs II

      12 years ago

      I think that most of the guys(Barbajo, T) stated it best…I personally voted no because it was an all or nothing kind of vote & I’m very, very leary of creating another beuracracy(which would have to happen to “oversee” the OEMs) because that is a jeanie that you have to be very careful about releasing from the bottle…I definitely agree something should be done regarding shaft flex…The current situation is ridiculous….

      I would also agree with T’s suggestion of putting lofts on the bottom of the clubs(ala wedges & most hybrids) because the “old school” number on the bottom of the club means nothing anymore…I believe that we should give the consumer the ultimate say…Whether it be ignorance or apathy, I really don’t hear a lot of talk amongst the guys I play with for industry standardization(Though admittedly, this isn’t an accurate picture of the golfing public as a whole)….

      Sometimes in our society, if a group(not neccessarilly the majority) repeats something long enough & loud enough, they get the “change” that they wanted, regardless of whether it was appropriate, needed or even an issue at all….The buying public is in a postion to perpetrate change with their buying decisions…$$ talk, and if a company feels that this is an issue worth addressing(or any one or two of the issues), then let them address it within their club lines…If the public responds, great, change occurs thus creating a new standard and the facilitator of that change(OEM) is rewarded..If not, then it was a non-issue and ya move on…

      Granted, the overiding genetic animal purchasing clubs today is a sheep, however I say that from a psychological standpoint, not an intellectual one….We as a society often think that we know better than the masses and have to protect them from their own collective ignorance…..I don’t know that one guy bein pissed that his 6i doesn’t go as far as another’s 7i is very compelling or valid arguement for “standardizaton”…..

      The one issue that really bugs me, & I don’t know that we need new standards or groups to enforce it, is when a driver head says 10.5*, Jesus, make it 10,5*….Anything else is false & decietful…Anything else is just plain wrong….If we can’t see that 10,5* means 10.5* without writing a book or creating an oversight committee, then we’ve got much larger problems than the fact that 10.5* doesn’t mean 10.5*…JMHO…Great article T…

      Fairways & Greens 4ever…..

      Reply

      R. P. Jacobs II

      12 years ago

      Excuse the typos…No spell check & I’m lost…lol…Fairways & Greens 4ever….

      Reply

      RAT

      9 years ago

      AMEN !!! No standards !
      Just make it what it says it is.
      I had my irons tweaked to suit a certain yardage and most others who go to a fitter will also have their equipment tweaked.. That’s what fitting means. I think this came up before by a major equipment mfg. who more likely had gobs of molds made years ahead and was stuck with these pieces and the competition got the upper hand by decreasing the amount of degrees on their equipment. Leave it to the mfg. to decide what they want . FREEDOM to DESIGN.

      Overninety

      12 years ago

      First of wall , great article , its a very interesting point.
      I think there are two main reason why OEM don’t want industry Standards.
      The first one y marketing reasons: to have a New Standard its a great way to catch this guy that changes clubs every year.
      The second reason is tolerances: If you take a small company with great craftsmanship (MIURA, Fourteen,Bridgestone, to name a few) I bet you get exactly the same specs that the factory specified and of course you pay for that in advance. On the other hand TM, Callaway, Ping maybe have very different specs between one set and another of the same model. So with no standards, two very different 6 iron (or wallabies by the way:)) are both OK.
      Regarding fitting I think it is a must with or without Industry Standards.

      Take two very different OEMs like MIURA and Callaway. I bet that every Miura club in the world

      Reply

      mybluc4

      12 years ago

      I have no problem with loft angles because every individual has to make a perfomance decision based on their own swing and how they match up with a particular iron head and design. My real beef is that there is not a standard for shafts. I don’t care how much technologly is put into the equation, I would just like to see a standard in shaft designations so players can make better decisions on what brand they would like to use. Every manufacturer has its own definition of its specs. This makes it extremely difficult to for a consumer to make apples to apples comparisons.

      Reply

      Frank

      12 years ago

      Yes but like the others some things after definites Shaft flex, lie and length. I can personally care less if the person I am paying is hitting an 8 iron to my 7 or vice versa because if they are in the trap pin high left an I am 25 feet pin high I clearly have an advantage. for those who don’t take advantage of the fitters out there or buy clubs aimlessly because of the commercials then shame on them for not researching. As consumers we are afforded the technology now to do the research before buying. so if I go to the cobra AMPs and get 10 more yards than my mizunos then I should first look at the lofts before replacing them. I mean come on. i do agree, like I said, on the length and lie though i should be able to take my specs from one set to the next seemlessly.

      Shaft flex, while a sticking point, can also be very different maker to maker from the quality of the materials (graphite) so it may need a little fudge factor (not the 3 degrees in loft we see in drivers these days BTW) but there should be some consistency

      Reply

      GolfSpy T

      12 years ago

      I think some things need standards, and others are mostly better off left alone.

      The industry absolutely needs a standard way to define shaft flex. Ideally the standard would cover the entire profile of the shaft…at least the butt, middle and tip sections, measured at very specific points, with every manufacturer using the same tools to take those measurements.

      Driver shaft length: I’m actually opposed to something like a 45″ inch standard. I do think the consumer needs to better understand that often extra distance comes from extra length on the shaft, and often longer shafts mean less accuracy, but I’m not going to blame the OEMs for an under-educated consumer.

      This is also where Wilson’s 4:3 analogy sort of falls apart. Nobody said all TVs could never have a different aspect aspect ratio (even if 4:3 was the “standard” of the time). But…what I believe everyone agreed on was how 4:3 was actually measured. Imagine if one company measured with a ruler, another with a precision device designed exclusively for that purpose, and a 3rd measured with two wet noodles cut to the appropriate length.

      Essentially that’s what we have in the golf industry…different tools, applied differently to measure the same spec. Using length as the example…every club on Tour must be measured using the Ground Plane method. At least one OEM that I’m aware of uses this same method for retail clubs, however; I’m fairly certain many do not. Most actually measure loft the same way, however; tolerances and what Will Ferrell calls “Truthiness” are different issues entirely. So yeah…I think 9.5 should always equal 9.5, but that doesn’t happen now.

      Length and loft…especially with irons are tricky. I don’t think it’s fair to lock every OEM into a specific standard for either. Each OEM produces different irons for different types of players (handicap is often used as the point differentiation). It might make more sense to have 3 or 4 iron standards (the SGI standard, the GI standard, etc.), but that would ultimately lead to consumer confusion. At the end of the day the consumer simply needs to educate himself better. What I can’t do is sit here and tell you that every golfer should be custom fit, and then turn around and tell the OEMs that I want them to design two sets of very different clubs for two sets of very different golfers, but design them both to absolutely identical “standard” specs. I don’t think it will work.

      Incidentally, the demand for more distance isn’t unique to weekend golfers. I’ve been told that even Tour pros (the best of the best) want more distance out of their irons. It’s not necessarily that they need it, but even those guys have vanity issues. If two guys on tour have the same distance in, and one is hitting an 8 while the other is hitting a 7, more than a few guys are going to go back to the van and ask why the guy next to them is able to hit less club.

      Even after testing clubs for 3 years, and being fully aware of all the little tricks, I’m not immune to it. My playing partner and I had the same distance in to the 10th last night. I hit an 8, he hit a 9…and I’m thinking how is that guy hitting less club than I am? I stewed over it until I got home, and then realized his clubs are at least a degree stronger, and half an inch longer…that’s how. Ultimately where irons are concerned the consumer would be better served if the industry stamped lofts rather than single-digit numbers on the soles of irons (just like most do with wedges).

      Beyond that, I don’t see a huge need for standardizing loft and length (though I do think a lie standard is a good idea) across the industry. What I do think the industry needs is a standard for the methods and tools used to measure those specifications. If TaylorMade wants to make their standard driver length 45.75″ while PING wants to do 45.25″, that cool…but lets gets everybody measuring the same way with the same tools such that a 46″ Cobra club is the same length as a 46″ Callaway club. 1 inch should always equal 1 inch. Right now it doesn’t.

      Point is…apart from issues with quality control and tolerances that are wider than they ought to be, and with the exception of shaft flex where a standard is desperately needed, the industry doesn’t so much need standards where specifications are concerned, but rather standards for the tools and methods used to measure those specs.

      Reply

      wdgolf

      12 years ago

      I agree with this…mostly. I say mostly because when you change the length of a club, it affects what lie angle a person should use, so you can’t really have one be standard and not the other.

      However, I 100% agree that measurements really must be standardized. I’m not a big fan of PX shafts, but their system is infinitely better than Regular/Firm/Stiff/XS because it actually means something. I would love shaft manufacturers to at least offer the full numbers (6.0) so the tip could be trimmed to get to the half numbers (6.5)

      As far as lofts, I’m torn because my friends hit their longer irons a club farther than I do. I know it’s because of loft, but it still bugs me and causes me to try to go at it with my irons :D. Still, OEMs need to sell clubs and lofts can be changed in pretty much any golf store, so that’s a compromise I’m happy to make if shaft makers and unbendable lofts were more standard.

      Reply

      MikeG

      12 years ago

      If you go to the KBS shaft website, there are tip trimming instructions for their shafts with the Rifle numbers. That’s really helpful IMO.

      As much as I’d like to see some kind of standard, face it, how far we hit a club also has many other variables. If you hit a compressed 6 iron at 89 mph, it’s going a lot farther than my scoopy 72 mph 6 iron.

      Barbajo

      12 years ago

      I voted yes, but with an asterisk. I think there should be a standard for shaft flex, but after that it should be every man for himself. If everyone in my group is hitting what is labelled an 8 iron while I’m hitting what’s labelled a 7 iron, but they have the same loft and we hit them about the same distance, what difference does it make? As long as each of us knows how far we hit each club, they could name the clubs after animals and it would amount to the same thing.

      “What club did you hit?”

      “I hit my Buffalo.”

      “Wow, I usually have to hit my Wallaby from there!”

      Maybe instead of 5, 6 or 7 irons they should have lofts on ’em like wedges do.

      Reply

      GolfSpy T

      12 years ago

      Barbajo…you tell me…which iron is the wallaby because I swear to god, I’m going to start calling mine that.

      Reply

      Barbajo

      12 years ago

      The one that goes 12-15 yards shorter than the Emu…

      Barbajo

      12 years ago

      …that Emu really flies!

      chitin

      12 years ago

      This one is good, you made my day :D

      Reply

      Sliq

      12 years ago

      The putter has to be called the penguin, because it’s flightless.

      David

      12 years ago

      Hah!…LOL

      TXHack

      12 years ago

      Barbajo, you got my vote. Build em, name em, put the loft on em, and by God I will buy em.

      Reply

      FLV02

      12 years ago

      First off, I want to say that I too have a lot of respect for Wilson Staff for answering the questions. Between their irons, their new golf ball lineup, and now agreeing to actually answer these questions, they have really impressed me. This is a great article and is something that definitely needed to be said. Their needs to be some uniformity between clubs of different manufacturers. In the big picture, the consumer is getting screwed and something needs to happen to change that.

      Reply

      Doug

      4 years ago

      Company’s should not put the number of the club on it, but only put the loft that it is . So try to be humble and if you cant hit it far enough go up a club, I use tommy armour 845 silver scots and still hit them good

      Reply

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