MYTHBUSTERS: Are Japanese Golf Clubs REALLY Better?
News

MYTHBUSTERS: Are Japanese Golf Clubs REALLY Better?

MYTHBUSTERS: Are Japanese Golf Clubs REALLY Better?

You’re probably in one of three camps when it comes to JDM (Japanese Domestic Market) equipment.

  • Camp 1 – You don’t know JDM from BMW or DMZ.
  • Camp 2 – You’ve done the research and think you know enough to know where you sit. Emphasis on think.
  • Camp 3 – You like it, you love it. You want some more of it. You have a dog named Endo and routinely tell neighbors you have the Hands of God.

tourspec-1

If you’re a #3, this is on your bedroom wall.

You’ve probably heard somewhere at sometime that JDM clubs are better or superior to other golf equipment, namely USDM or equipment marketed primarily to the United States domestic market. That’s just patently untrue and is more the product of hype and hyperbole than of substance and merit.

But this isn’t a bifurcated conversation. Buying golf equipment isn’t a yes or no proposition where there are universal truths which dictate what clubs must go in your bag. With that in mind, let’s explore some of the most common, and contentious talking points, and why they’re basically crap.

MOST OF THE TALK AROUND JDM IS BASICALLY CRAP

Claim: JDM equipment is built to the tightest tolerances in the industry. Moreover, if you buy a set of JDM irons, the loft, lie and head weight of each club is going to be spot on and this attention to detail unequivocally leads to better performance. (Miura for example produces irons with a spec tolerance of +/- .5 gr. for each head). This is no doubt impressive and (mostly) accurate.

Truth:  Yes, JDM clubs are built to more exact specifications. That said, loft and lie are simple (and cheap) to adjust and because forged clubs are softer, loft/lie should be checked every year anyway. Non-JDM companies produce clubs with head weights with a typical tolerance of  +/- 3 gm. Companies or players will make up any difference by adding tip weights inside the tip of the shaft or affix lead tape to club head. Neither solution is sexy, but it’s a bunch of malarky if you think there’s any difference between 3-4 grams of lead tape and 3-4 grams of headweight. It’s even more malarky if you think 3-4 grams has any quantifiable performance impact for most golfers.

Take a look at the pictures below. I call it “Poser v. Player”

Poser 
Photo Credit: David Dusek – Golf.com

Claim: JDM really isn’t any more expensive than other clubs.

Truth: Um, yes it is. But make sure you’re comparing apples to apples. You can certainly buy a set of used JDM clubs and save some coin, but that not the point. Fact: You can purchase a new set of Mizuno MP-5 (3-PW) irons for $900. A comparable set from Epon or Miura will run you close to, if not slightly more than $2000. So what do you get for twice the price? Good question.

Desperate reach: But wait, if I spend more, but they hold their value better, don’t they actually cost less over time?

Curt reply: Theoretically, it’s possible. But is this really just you trying to justify dropping 2k on a set of irons? It’s fools logic to try and quantify the potential resale value of an item, with a niche following, produced by a company which may or may not be around in 5-10 years (See: Scratch Golf, S-Yard). The person who factors in resale value on a quickly depreciating asset where the difference in 5-10 years may be a just couple hundred dollars probably washes and reuses plastic bags.

japan-3

Superior Artistry is an esoteric descriptor that basically means nothing

Claim: Japanese made clubs are the result of superior craftsmanship and artistry.

Truth: What does that even mean? Have we reduced the conversation to esoteric terminology as a means to justify spending a bunch of money? As we’ve already established, JDM clubs are produced with a greater attention to detail, none of which impact performance and “artistry” is far too subjective a term to for anyone to do anything other than argue about whether their irons look like cast pieces of junk or refined samurai swords. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, or whoever spends the most.

golfsamurai

Let’s not pretend the Edo period has anything to do with forged irons.

Pixie_Dust

Some people actually believe JDM clubs are made with superior metals and magic pixie dust. Well, the metal part is true, but the pixie dust seems a little odd.

SUPERIOR IS A TERM RESERVED FOR DAVID BOWIE, NOT GOLF CLUBS

Claim: JDM is flat out superior.

Truth: Any club which isn’t fit to your swing, tempo, athleticism and release isn’t going to be superior to anything. Most green grass accounts and many retailers don’t carry JDM product, so buyers are left to order clubs without being properly fit. The only thing worse than dropping two grand on a set of irons is dropping two grand and then realized you hit them worse than the clubs you just sold for $350 on Craigslist. Bottom line – We reached a point in the industry where superior and inferior are no longer viable adjectives.

Claim: US companies care more about profits and balance sheets than releasing quality product.

Truth: Yes, the industry does have some cannibalistic tendencies and shorter product cycles are no doubt part of this conversation. That said, NEWSFLASH…if you run a business you care about profit and balance sheets. Ping, Titleist, Mizuno, Epon, Miura, XXIO…They all care about turning a profit and staying in business. Now to what degree they care and how this impacts product cycles is a more relevant conversation. You also have to consider what percentage of a particular company is dedicated to equipment sales. See this recent piece on Bridgestone for a more thorough explanation.

Some final thoughts to chew on:

af-302Even JDM stalwart Epon is selling out. If JDM clubs are really superior, why would they need PGA Tour validation? Hint: It really, really helps to sell more clubs.

It’s one thing to have a set of clubheads which are nuts-on in terms of weight. But if you don’t replicate that level of precision with the shaft, grip, and MOI, are you really any further ahead? There’s nothing more bizarre than the guy who will fight to the death defending the honor of his JDM irons because the specs are so tight, yet he has no problem slapping in a set of stock DG S300s and Golf Pride grips.

In the final analysis, it’s a free market – and that means people are free to spend their cash however they want. But if you don’t take the time to become a critical consumer of information, you’re Just Dumb Man.

For You

For You

Best Spikeless Golf Shoes 2024 Best Spikeless Golf Shoes 2024
Buyer's Guides
Apr 12, 2024
Best Spikeless Golf Shoes of 2024
First Look
Apr 12, 2024
Under Armour’s Cheesy Take on the Masters
News
Apr 12, 2024
PING WebFit: Get Fit From your Phone
Chris Nickel

Chris Nickel

Chris Nickel

Chris is a self-diagnosed equipment and golf junkie with a penchant for top-shelf ice cream. When he's not coaching the local high school team, he's probably on the range or trying to keep up with his wife and seven beautiful daughters. Chris is based out of Fort Collins, CO and his neighbors believe long brown boxes are simply part of his porch decor. "Isn't it funny? The truth just sounds different."

Chris Nickel

Chris Nickel

Chris Nickel

Chris Nickel

Chris Nickel

Chris Nickel

Chris Nickel

Chris Nickel

Chris Nickel





    This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.

      Jimmy Choo

      2 years ago

      When I read this article, I almost faint, can’t believe it’s from MGS!
      Regardless of whether Japanese club is better or not, 3-4g different in club head weight affect the club swing weight by around 1 to 2 SW?! If you know what a swing weight is!? Precise control of club head weight is very important in setting the set of iron right and consistent.
      Ok, it’s a 6 years old article but still I can’t swallow it, do pardon me :(

      Reply

      Khanda

      6 years ago

      Curios about what you think about PXG iron that currently in your bag..

      Is it worth every penny?

      Reply

      Blake

      4 years ago

      Anyone who does not know that Japanese forged irons are better looking, feeling, and most likely performing than clubs that are available to most of us in North America either has not tried them or they are in denial. When I first hit a set of tourstage irons I could have cared less whether or not they would feel so much more soft and solid and forgiving while still being forged than any other iron no matter who made it but they. were and the more clubs from Japan I try the more I know for a fact that they are just made to a higher standard in all respects. I would like to think that people can get past the mindset of well this is America so we have the best of everything and if it aint here it aint no good, truth is all parts of the world have things that they make or do better than everyone else, its called culture or diversity or whatever, its a good thing embrace it for your own good and if you choose not to at least be quiet and dont ruin it for the open minded people. I have gone around with my Japanese irons for years and its so crazy to me the way people get their back up or scoff at the idea that these Japanese made irons could be better and they dont know about it like who does this guy think he is? I’m just gonna fight him and his idea rather than try them and find out for myself. Basically I have learned that there are two kinds of people in the world, those who learn something new and are appreciative and thankful to the person for this gift of knowledge that they can now use to benefit themselves and people who find it in some way to be a personal attack when someone teaches them about something and would rather stand their ground and be ignorant rather than be educated or be wrong and its the second group of people who really fuck everything up and ruin things for everybody, lol.

      Reply

      ERIK HONAN

      6 years ago

      As a poster much earlier in this conversation said this article does seem to be heavily biased all the way through the article. What I can tell you having lived in America being an avid scratch golfer and then living in South East Asia full time as an expat is much easier to see. I had always heard what I think alot of people in the States hear and that is golf equipment in more than a few areas are better. I really did not think that this was ever disputed either. Its also makes many of the Japanese clubs prohibitively expensive sometimes to almost comical levels. That said oh the whole? I dont think anyone who is a genuinely good ball striker and low handicap would dispute that all in all there are going to be a much larger selection in the JDM market and and your Honma, Miura, and the list goes on and to a greater extent than the States so its just going to make sense that the equipment in many many more cases is going to be to a higher standard. Its just the way its done in Japan and its no secret to Americans in general. I dont think its any great secret that while Nike was figuring out their forging process Tiger Woods was positively NOT using clubs built by Nike, was he hell no!!!!! No, you are never going to get exact details however suffice it say its no real secret that many many of the top pros are playing Japanese forged clubs with American stamps on them of whatever manufacturer. Hopefully that is not news to anyone. You can freely read Hiro Honma for instance….he will tell you how many major championships he has from his clubs. Can he tell you which and what year? Absolutely not and its no secret that he is under some extremely heavy corporate legal contracts that prevent him from discussing specifics for years to come. When he is able to I think people will probably see that over half of Tigers playing career was with clubs buily in Japan by the gurus of forging and these guys were personally making Tigers clubs…..for years.

      Reply

      Scott

      8 years ago

      I work at a premier full time Junior golf academy in Florida. Our students practice 4 hours a day 5-7 days a week hitting more golf balls in a month than most amateurs in a lifetime. The one thing I can say from personally experience is that a set of Epon’s that have been hit 10 thousand times (in the sweet spot mind you) remain nearly flawless compared to many other (TaylorMade, Callaway, etc.) clubs. The quality is remarkable regardless of the specs, that’s just an undeniable fact. The author of this article clearly has no experience either owning and using a JDM product or witnessing first hand someone who has.

      Reply

      Jay Black

      4 years ago

      I couldn’t agree more. It’s also worth mentioning that ENDO, the maker of EPON, forge a lot of clubs for other brands. It’s also not just the irons that ENDO does they do the hybrids and woods as well. I think that if golfers actually knew that a lot of players on tour are playing clubs that are being produced at a facility like ENDO that’s different from the clubs that are produced that they are buying they might be a bit upset.

      Reply

      Ronald Kuntoro

      8 years ago

      Better in performance, NO! Better feel? , YES! BTW this article is a hater’s speech. Pls write something more “analytical”.

      Reply

      John Doe

      7 years ago

      I have to agree, poorly written article, very different to what I have read on my MGS. Author apparently has a problem with the “claims” JDM / people – but makes claims left and right himself. Just a lot of hot air without substance.

      Reply

      Khanda

      6 years ago

      Well Said…
      sadly it was came from a well known golf site..

      Kyosuke Nakamura

      8 years ago

      I really think you should define what JDM. Saqra is for USDM. They have no presence in Japan. This club should not be the picture if you want to say JDM. Epon, is also non exclusive to Japan now. You can get just about any of their clubs here. Miura has some JDM only. Bridgestone is no longer JDM only and so is Srixon and Xxio. If you want to name some JDM exclusive, or Asian market exclusive, Romaro, Yamaha comes to mind. Most of so called JDM that are heavily advertised in the US are not very popular in Japan to begin with but these two are very popular and can be had almost at any golf shop. Please don’t say golds factory is JDM either. That brand has more following in the US compared to Japan as the owner is full of crap and everyone pretty much hates him.

      Reply

      Chris Nickel

      8 years ago

      No doubt the line between JDM and non-JDM is more blurry now than ever before. As brands many would previously have labeled JDM (Miura, Epon, XXIO) have expanded their reach (hard to compete if you purposely ignore North America) there are fewer brands which are authentically JDM, thus my assertion there really isn’t anything demonstrably better about JDM

      Reply

      Frank Casanova

      8 years ago

      Best Forging Period .. Japanese is TOP

      Reply

      Dennis Wells

      8 years ago

      Most clubs for domestic brands are made in Japan or Taiwan or China what’s the difference. Ping but the only iron company that makes him here in the country because they have their own foundry and they make a lot of other products for aerospace

      Reply

      Michael Jordan Haiduck

      8 years ago

      With the cost I’ll stay with my Mizuno’s.

      Reply

      Ryan Berry

      8 years ago

      To all the people saying no:
      If you believe there’s no difference, trade in your Toyota for a dongfeng (made in China)

      Reply

      . Michael Thomas

      3 years ago

      All those Japanese cars are now made in the U.S. ????????????????

      Reply

      Robby Gomez

      8 years ago

      Let MIZUNO be the comparison. As they are made in Japan. Their metallurgy is second to none (Japanese manufacturing)!

      Reply

      Albert Eng

      8 years ago

      Is it better? I say YES! The fine forged craftsmanship of a Japanese iron is superior. If pro golfers didn’t get paid by manufacturers. What brands would they play?

      Reply

      Rasmus Magnusson

      8 years ago

      Fact. Far from every player on tours are payed to play the clubs they are playing…

      Reply

      Matthew McGuire

      8 years ago

      Pretty much every player on the us tour is paid to use clubs

      Reply

      Albert Eng

      8 years ago

      David Moore I’m saying if they weren’t paid. What would they use?

      Reply

      Kyosuke Nakamura

      8 years ago

      It was basically all mizuno or ping back in the day before pay to play.

      Reply

      Mike Mueller

      8 years ago

      Tiger played Miura irons with a Nike stamp for the entirety of his contract with Nike. Nuff said. Lol

      Reply

      Rasmus Magnusson

      8 years ago

      David Moore no. Im not saying that. Im saying that a Lot of less good players on tours around the world are not paid to play the clubs. But they are not all playing epon or muiras…

      Reply

      Lee Shaw

      8 years ago

      Yes they are made to exacting standards with quality materials (mostly anyway) but it still comes down to the idiot holding the end of it.

      Reply

      Reynaldo Valdez

      8 years ago

      Yes, they are better. Especially those irons that where forge by Endo. Endo is where the best Katana (Samurai) are made. Another secret of Japanese made clubs is their shaft.

      Reply

      Leo Call

      8 years ago

      Yes. Yes they are

      Reply

      Kyosuke Nakamura

      8 years ago

      I had my Epon, MR-23 and Yamaha tried by every random person and their reaction is always similar. Some say “wtf”, some say “holy shit” and most say “wow”. They always do the same thing. The hit, say something and they never follow the ball. They look at the club.

      Reply

      Seunghee Cho

      8 years ago

      Overrated. If it is that much better, all tour players should use those.

      Reply

      Robby Gomez

      8 years ago

      True only on a small scale. Sponsorship requirements effect product usage by Tour players.

      Reply

      Ryan Berry

      8 years ago

      They were for almost ten years in a row prior to sponsors using 13 club contracts. It’s what tiger used before he was paid to play something else.

      Reply

      Seunghee Cho

      8 years ago

      Any players iron head is good enough. It is how much time you sped for custom fitting.

      Reply

      Kyosuke Nakamura

      8 years ago

      Yea! Just look at Stenson’s WITB. LMAO

      Reply

      Chuck Forst

      8 years ago

      I had a set of Miura irons built for me, the best irons I have ever hit. I used to like my Hogans

      Reply

      Gregory Doore

      8 years ago

      Reply

      Brian Wodarek

      8 years ago

      No

      Reply

      Donovan Childers

      8 years ago

      May not be better, but they prove you don’t need to constantly change club design.

      Reply

      Nick Marino

      8 years ago

      When it comes down to it, you get what you pay for. I don’t mind paying extra for a superior product

      Reply

      Daniel Tuchklaper

      8 years ago

      Dean M Taylor

      Reply

      Mike Rausch

      8 years ago

      Ahh a rehashing of this nonsense of an article again.

      Reply

      Benjamin Lee

      8 years ago

      It really comes down to the indian not the arrow but the Japanese clubs have superb craftsmanship but the cost reflects that craftsmanship.

      Reply

      Jamie McCormack

      8 years ago

      Built a set of Epon yesterday and by far away better than OEM the head weights were perfect

      Reply

      Kyle

      8 years ago

      Jamie ,why bother. The ball speed and smash factor with Japanese is through the roof. Yes sometimes a person gets better ball speed with an oem. But majority of time ball speed and smash factor are better with Japanese. Oh yeah, pxg are not Japanese.

      Reply

      Alec Gabriel

      8 years ago

      They are waaaaay better

      Reply

      Thino le Tien

      8 years ago

      So true……

      Reply

      Mike Miller

      8 years ago

      The metal seems different for sure!

      Reply

      Jun Nakiri

      8 years ago

      Knowing both market, I can say that JDM’S are more accurately built than US counterpart.

      Swing weight: in JDM, if D3, that’s what you get theough out the set.

      Shaft step and length: let alone flex, in JDM, steps and length are perfect.

      Looks: stamping and finishes are to perfection jn JDM.

      I had two sets of custom built iron sets ok n 1981 and 1983. One from Mizuno and another from MacGregor at the height when Jack Nicklaus introduced Muirfield line. I had to custom order my set because being a lefty that’s what we had to do to own a decent set.

      I loved Muirfield and I still do. BUt criteria Iisted above were off with Muirfield itons.

      It doesn’t mean JDM irons are better because I hit far better shot with Miirfield.

      After all, clubs can be fine tuned. Stamping and finishes are secondary importance when comes to shot making.

      Reply

      El Tee

      8 years ago

      I had the muirfield irons and loved them

      Reply

      Raphael Nolet

      8 years ago

      A good shaft is more important than a head

      Reply

      David Price

      8 years ago

      Not better just more expensive. Save ur coins and take lessons. .

      Reply

      Michael Macale

      8 years ago

      silly, narrow-minded article….in the end, you just have to let people appreciate finer things if they prefer to (wine, whisky, food, shoes, watches and yes, nicely forged clubs).

      nice click-bait though…

      Reply

      Jordan Grebe

      8 years ago

      Pretty good article, but weight consistency actually makes a big difference

      Reply

      SKip

      8 years ago

      His argument is, that weight does make a big difference. But you can compensate by applying lead tape, and/or tip weights in the head. I dont know, for me that indicates inferior quality.

      Reply

      Frank Cruz

      8 years ago

      Endo clubs FEEL better. That is why “real tour issue” clubs from most AMERICAN companies are made by Endo and others in Japan (where price is no object). You didn’t think that the Nike blades used by TW are Chinese forgings like you and I can buy in the store, did you? High-level staff players for TM, Callaway and others play specially and secretly made Japanese heads that LOOK like what is found in the stores, why do you think that is?

      Thomad

      8 years ago

      I’m so far down the list of write in that no one will even come close to reading my comment. But here goes: equate this to hunting & fishing. You can hunt the same game and have same success with a custom made rifle ($6000) or one from Wallmart ($300). Same holds for trout fishing. I think you get the point!

      Reply

      mackdaddy

      8 years ago

      I have what I would guess is a very unique experience. Several years ago I had a pro tell me I should be playing forged irons because I was to good for the Cobra os irons I had been playing since I took up the game. I just laughed and figured he was just trying to sell me some clubs. That year I was lucky enough to win our club championship for Net because I had a few good match play rounds and received strokes in the stroke play final. I won a $1000 gift certificate to a golf store that was going out of business in three months. (lol) I went in and spoke to the fitter at the shop. I explained I was a label lover would take his recommendations. I had never heard about club fittings. We scheduled three days of hitting irons. When I came in he had tapped over the back of all the clubs and had me hit each on a launch monitor starting with my own clubs. I hit three balls with each of ten irons, setting aside the ones I liked the best. I did this for three days. On the third day I hit all the ones I had liked the best, and narrowed it down to five irons. The next day I came back to find THE ONE! Well after hitting the ten each with the top five I had it down to three clubs and the two knocked out were significantly less soft feeling than the final three. I could not tell the final three apart! The final three were Mizuno MP 52, and KZG ZO blade in mat finish and bright finish. I choose the KZG because it had two to one, but I couldn’t tell them apart otherwise. I have been been refit twice in the fifteen years since that day. I played Miura CB-501 irons for five years and this year I gave in to my age and went in search of an easier to hit iron than my tiny blades. I went thru another exhausting fitting and hit all the big OEM sticks and again came down to KZG Forged III. I belive!!!

      Reply

      Nick Smrd

      8 years ago

      PXG > JDM

      Reply

      Kevin

      8 years ago

      Not even close, PXG is good but Epon puts up the same numbers and feels 100x better

      Reply

      Skip

      8 years ago

      Agree. Endo makes the best feelings heads IMO

      Julio Manalo

      8 years ago

      Wrong title for this article. Title should be something like “Are JDM Clubs Worth Your Money?”. The writer himself says that JDM clubs are definitely crafted of a higher quality, meaning better but cost a lot more. So its really up to the buyer if he thinks the added dollars spent is a worthy investment.

      Reply

      Chris Nickel

      8 years ago

      I never say anything JDM is of higher quality – only better tolerances. You’re drawing a conclusion which many do and is part of the reason so many people are so misinformed.

      Reply

      Skip

      8 years ago

      “Some people actually believe JDM clubs are made with superior metals and magic pixie dust. Well, the metal part is true, but the pixie dust seems a little odd.”

      Doesn’t superior metals mean higher quality?

      “Even JDM stalwart Epon is selling out. If JDM clubs are really superior, why would they need PGA Tour validation? Hint: It really, really helps to sell more clubs.”

      What does this argument even mean? You’re right, Tour validation sells golf equipment but on Tour, you validate your equipment by shelling out the cash (i.e. the big OEM’s). But they’re trying to draw attention to, that if a guy’s playing EPON on tour that means it really is better for the player, because you know nobody paid him/her to do it. Just because your game can’t discern any difference in quality doesn’t mean it’s not there. JDM is not undeniably better, maybe it is for some, and maybe it isn’t for others. Personally I’m pretty open minded when it comes to equipment, but 3 of my top-5 favorite irons are JDM.

      Dan Konyk

      8 years ago

      Its metal, get a grip people

      Reply

      Frank Cruz

      8 years ago

      Do Japanese clubs feel better? These generally do! That is why “real tour issue” clubs from most AMERICAN companies are made by Endo and others in Japan (where price is no object). You didn’t think that the Nike blades used by TW are Chinese forgings like you and I can buy in the store, did you? High-level staff players for TM, Callaway and others play specially and secretly made Japanese heads that LOOK like what is found in the stores, why do you think that is?

      Reply

      mlecuni

      8 years ago

      In Europe, you can be fit for some jdm equipment as some are OEM just like wishon.

      This article not friendly for JDM buyers, the website deserves better editors, less talking and more facts.

      Reply

      baudi

      8 years ago

      The day a serious player moves on to JDM equipment the chances of going back to USDM are slim.

      Reply

      trueflight2003

      8 years ago

      My fitted Fourteen FH1000 cost me 900 last year with special shaft, DG Pro, 6pc. They were way better than my Callaway x12, Nike procombo, Mizuno pro2 and Mizuno mx22 sets. How so? Available good shaft & fitting on heads that work. They are sweet. Only now am I seeing same design technology on Srixon 945 and Mizuno MP5. JDM may not get everything first but their technology can be relied on. Definitely not marketing driven.

      Reply

      Duncan Castles

      8 years ago

      “It’s even more malarky if you think 3-4 grams has any quantifiable performance impact for most golfers.”

      Chris, have you ever been fitted for an MOI matched set of irons or woods?

      Tom Wishon (who developed the technique), describes the process as follows: “The way the best club fitters do it is to build a test club of at least the 5 or 6 iron that possesses everything BUT the weighting the golfer needs in his fitting. The club has the right length, loft, lie, shaft and grip, but the head weight is left light. Then the golfer goes through a process of hitting three shots, after which weight is added to the head. This process is repeated until the point is found when the golfer definitely perceives the head weight to be too heavy and too laboring to swing consistently on tempo. A fitter then backs off some of the weight and that becomes the benchmark club from which the MOI is measured and then duplicated on the other clubs in the set.”

      I remember being fitted for MOI in this manner around four years ago. I’d played golf since I was a child, but for much of my life I’d only managed to play a few rounds a year due to work commitments and geography. I trusted my fitter, but was hugely sceptical that my feel for a golf club would be up to discerning differences in the feel of the test club as he added single 2 gramme strips of lead to its head. In fact I told him, ‘You’re going to have judge which weight is working best for me because I won’t be able to tell’.

      Then I started hitting shots, the fitter kept adding the 2 gramme strips of lead – and it was easy. We reached a point where strike felt better, then very good. We added another strip of lead, the club felt too heavy and strike wasn’t so good. It was that obvious. With just a 2 gramme difference in weight.

      So will +/- 3 grammes of weight tolerance in a clubhead (in other words, a potential 6 grammes of unintended head weight variation from one iron to the next) have a quantifiable performance impact for most golfers? I’m sure it will.

      Moreover, if you accept Wishon’s thesis that quality club fitting delivers more benefit to the average golfer than the highly skilled golfer, then tighter tolerances should be especially important to the “most golfers” cadre who you suggest shouldn’t be bothered about them.

      Reply

      Gisle Solhaug

      8 years ago

      I agree. I would like to add that it is not only the MOI that is important; the overall weight is just as important. The overall weight of the club affects the speed of your hands. The MOI affects the way the club release. One reason that tolerance is so important is that it creates some consistency in your set of clubs. Anyone interested in learning about scientific matching of golf clubs may sign up on http://www.rational-golf.com. The BioMatch method of matching golf clubs within a set will be released end April.

      Reply

      Duncan Castles

      8 years ago

      That’s certainly my understanding and experience, Gisle. MOI, overall weight and the distribution of that weight through the club (grip, shaft and clubhead) are all important factors in a good fitting. And all of these automatically become more consistent when club heads are manufactured to tighter weight tolerances.
      Once my handicap was down to single figures I asked my fitters to rebuild the MOI-matched set with heavier shafts to be MOI and MOI-balance-matched. MOI balance matching keeps the MOI (a measure of the heft of the club) and the distribution of weight between club head, shaft and grip as consistent as possible through the set. Again, the extra attention to detail in the build improved performance.

      Chris Nickel

      8 years ago

      Thanks for your comments and thoughts – MOI matched sets and different fitting philosophies are certainly a worthy topic and a good subject for a different article – That said, let’s clarify a couple things:

      1) I said there’s no difference between 3-4 gr. of lead tape and 3-4 gr. of tip weight – I don’t think there’s much there to debate…Let’s say you need to add 3 gr. of weight to a club head to get it exactly where you want it…whether that be for MOI or something else, adding 3 gr. via lead tape or via tip weights makes no difference.
      2) I also said, for most players, a difference in 3-4 grams of headweight isn’t going to make any difference…and while I understand the premise behind MOI, I have serious reservations about someone who claims to be able to tell the difference between a club at d-2 and d-3 – which is effectively 2 gr. or a single dollar bill. And it’s not just the ability to tell this perceived difference in a fitting on Moreover, the point being missed is that you need to add or subtract at least 8 gm. in order to even begin impacting the COG of a club – Again, I’m talking “most” golfers…not the fallacy of composition which many fall into where they think that if it’s true for them, it’s true for everyone…We have to remember the average male golfer has a handicap in the mid teens, swings a driver in the low 90s and carries the ball a 190 yds or so…that guy may not even know the difference between MOI, swing weight or whether his total club weight is 312 gr. or 315 gr.

      Duncan Castles

      8 years ago

      Thanks for replying, Chris. As regards the points you make.
      1) Yes, there shouldn’t be a difference in performance between lead tape, tip weight, or just getting the head weight correct to start with. The issue is that once a company starts accepting +/-3 gramme tolerance on club heads for cost reasons and sends the factory built clubs out with those tolerances built in (which some do), then you have a potential 6 gramme unintentional weight difference between successive irons, and a guarantee of more inconsistency through the set.
      2) I take it from your reply that you haven’t been fit for MOI. I understand your scepticism, because I went into the fitting thinking there was no chance I’d be able to tell the difference, but I could. Easily. And I was an irregular golfer with a 19-handicap at the time. Remember the two gramme difference is being swung around at the end of a long stick, which makes it a lot easier to detect.
      I also think your point about shifting centre of gravity is a red herring here. The additional weight isn’t intended to have a significant effect on CoG, and it’s not the variable the club builder is attempting to fit for. What the additional weight alters is MOI, the force required to the swing the club.
      As for your point on “most golfers”, I think you are confusing “average” with “majority of”. But let’s take the mid-teens, 90mph swing speed player you refer to. It’s clearly irrelevant whether they know what MOI, swing weight or their total club weight is, just as it’s irrelevant whether an elite professional knows those numbers. What’s relevant is the degree to which their clubs are well fitted to their swing in terms of those and other variables AND that the set is built consistently – for example, with the club head weight increasing in a structured manner as you go down through the set.
      The more consistent the set is built (and the better matched it is to a golfer’s swing) the more consistent will be the outcome of those swings. Moreover, if you listen to the experts on club fitting they will argue that the kind of average golfer you refer to actually benefits more from a properly fit and consistently built set than a skilled golfer. http://wishongolf.com/home-page-features/what-golfers-benefit-the-most-from-custom-clubfitting/

      Frank Cruz

      8 years ago

      Do Japanese clubs feel better? Generally they do! That is why “real tour issue” clubs from most AMERICAN companies are made by Endo and others in Japan (where price is no object). You didn’t think that the Nike blades used by TW are Chinese forgings like you and I can buy in the store, did you? High-level staff players for TM, Callaway and others play specially and secretly made Japanese heads that LOOK like what is found in the stores, why do you think that is?

      Duncan Castles

      8 years ago

      By the way, there is typically only 7 grammes of difference in head weight between consecutively numbered irons or hybrids. So tolerances of +/-3 grammes could almost double the difference intended by the designer, or all but eliminate it.

      Joe Golfer

      8 years ago

      Duncan,
      Excellent replies, both here and also your longer post listed at 1:51 p.m. of this same date, Feb 25.
      Also, it’s not only weight differences that matter.
      Many OEM’s aren’t too careful on lofts.
      Years ago (late 1980’s) I had a premium set of forged irons from a well known company.
      I had little distance gap between my 9 iron and PW, even when brand new.
      After years of playing them, I had the clubs measured, and there was only a two degree difference between those two clubs in my set.
      I’m not saying Japanese clubs are any better than a good set of other brands.
      Just saying that specs are important, though the author did point out that specs can easily be adjusted to correct these things if the golfer is familiar with that stuff. At the time, I was young and inexperienced and just assumed that the specs were proper from the factory.
      And I totally agree with you about the weight issues, especially if one clubhead is weighted wrongly 3 grams in one direction, and the succeeding clubhead is weighted wrongly 3 grams in the opposite direction, making them appoximately the same weight as each other.
      I enjoyed your post about being tested for MOI using 2 gram increments of lead tape.
      The author stated that “It’s even more malarky if you think 3-4 grams has any quantifiable performance impact for most golfers.” That’s his opinion, but I personally think even 3-4 grams could have noticeable impact for many. But we all have our opinions, so who knows without a reliable testing experiment, which would require a very great number of testers.

      Duncan Castles

      8 years ago

      Thanks Joe. Fully agree with you on loft, which I also understand is frequently not to spec on sets built to lower tolerances.
      The thing is that headweight, loft and lie angles should be the easy parts to keep consistent. You can imagine what’s happening when it comes to trying to control the variation between shafts in a supposedly matched set if manufacturers can’t be bothered applying tight tolerances to the first three variables…
      And we’re not just talking cheap kit here. I’ve been told about young professionals on some of the lesser tours whose major-name OEM sponsors have provided them with drivers and irons that were well off stated spec.

      SubP

      8 years ago

      I would have to disagree about your claim that usdm is +\- 3g. Iv personally seen head weights come in 7g over or under, and gapped between consecutive irons (one being over and the next being under) where a clubmaker has to add some 15g to a head to make consistent sw, usually by stuffing it in with tip weights/tungsten. Based on experience, the standards are much looser than 3g.

      Ronald Kuntoro

      8 years ago

      not better, less forgiving in fact. I own it. BUT, this is a big BUT. USDM irons feel like bricks. I owned Tmag, Nike, Cobra, Tom Wishon Golf Technology forged irons. Lack of feel. JDM irons has butter soft feel. Mizuno, Epon, Miura, Tourstage (bridgestone). But the drivers are equally the same to the USDM.

      Reply

      VINCENT

      8 years ago

      Whatever anyone thinks about where your clubs come from it’s all about personal preference. If you are a mid to low handicap, Custom fitting of a forged iron is in the end the best way to inprove your game. I had Muzino MP5 Irons custom fitted last December. Handicap has gone down 2 shots since that time. Say no more!

      Happy golfing!

      Reply

      Douplat Adrien

      8 years ago

      worst article I have ever seen on mygolfspy !!!

      Reply

      Rod_CCCGOLFUSA

      8 years ago

      I had the pleasure of having lunch with Honma’s President Kojo Nishitani at the PGA Show last year, and we talked about the Japanese vs U.S. approaches to equipment production. From the Japanese perspective, quality sells the product. On our side, it’s all about marketing hype.As a club fitter, I much prefer fitting equipment that starts with tight tolerances than trying to grind, tape, chop, and reweight some of the China-based USA stuff I have to deal with. It is telling that at the equipment show, OEM marketing people are everywhere and the engineers are left at home.

      Reply

      Gisle

      8 years ago

      I agree completely. The only thing high-tech in the golf club industry is its advertising. From a scientific point of view, very few of the claims made make any sense at all.

      Reply

      BIG STU

      8 years ago

      One thing everyone is missing the boat on is the metal the JDM folks use and the processes they use in forging it. Even older irons made in the USA feel different because of the quality of steel in them and the forging processes at the time. Yep I play a set of 36 year old Macgregors with newer modern shafts in them. If I could afford them there would be a set of Miura irons in my bag. As far as resell value I am not into that but I will tell you Miura irons hold their value better than anything produced by our domestic companies with the possible exception of Ping Eye 2 irons. And also if there was not anything to Endo forging then why are the TM 300 irons still sought after? yep they were Endo forged. Mizuno they have their own thing going with their patented grain flow forging and they command a high resale value also. Now on all of the above I am talking about strictly forged real blades not GI irons or cavity back blades with the exception of the Eye2 irons.

      Reply

      Regis

      8 years ago

      I was just thinking. I started playing Mac Gregor MT Tourneys in 1963. Back in those days there were pretty much forged irons which were forged in the US and junk, And MacGregor was the foremost maker of forged irons forging their irons in Albany, Ga., dating back to 1897 Eventually Spalding came out with the Executive irons which were cast they probably did more to grow the game of golf than anybody. The best irons I personally have ever played were the Mac Gregor Muirfields which were Jack’s irons. Jack parted ways with Mac Gregor because their quality slipped , ironically because they moved their forging and manufacturing overseas . My last forged set were Miura’s and they are special but ironically probably not as soft or responsive as the Tourneys that I first played as a kid.

      Reply

      Golfer Burnz

      8 years ago

      I think the exotic factor comes into play. Kind of like getting go out to eat at a sushi bar when you are used to eating hot dogs and hamburgers. It is a different experience than the usual mundane everyday American experience.

      Reply

      Paul Boe

      8 years ago

      While visiting a factory in China last year, we stumbled upon a driver sample being made for a prominent Japanese brand. Our factories always said they had Japanese customers but it did not resonate until I saw the GT-3000 head being manufactured in China. We even scored a couple head samples for ourselves. (Not impressed)

      China is the workshop of the world. You can get excellent quality if you know the right partners and have enough money to spend.
      Headed back in 3 weeks. Xiamen, Shenzhen, Dongguan China and Seoul S. Korea to catch the COEX golf fair. Should be lots of fun.

      Reply

      Oldplayer

      8 years ago

      Does the author wonder why he has put so many offside? I would offer this.
      While posing as an objective piece of “insider” wisdom it is in fact just a lot of biased opinion presented in the most smug way possible.
      It is like the article was intended to offend more than inform.
      We don’t want this cheap and nasty journalism. All the criticism is fully warranted.

      Reply

      Jason Warlond

      8 years ago

      Thanks Chris. You’ve written a quite convincing argument that JDM are in fact superior quality so may just have helped improved their market share. Especially when aesthetics are taken into the equation the JDMs make some beautiful looking clubs. If you feel good over them then that helps.
      NB. I have a set of Hogan Ft. Worths. One of the reasons being they are the best looking irons produced in the US in my opinion and comparable to many of the JDMs. They are also beautiful to hit of course. And the JDMs ARE expensive. Are JDMs worth the extra cost? Well that’s for the consumer to decide.

      Reply

      Nestor

      8 years ago

      I have played with a couple of Japanese brand clubs and, yes, I like them. I’ve owned Taylormade and Callaway sets for years and they’ve worked for me, too. Personally, if I were to make a choice for which set I’d play with permanently, I’d go Japanese brand. Golf is a game of ‘feel’ and the Japanese clubs play better for me. Between Taylormade and Callaway? My choice is Taylormade. Again, it’s a personal choice.

      Reply

      dcorun

      8 years ago

      As usual the point is being missed. You can buy Miura, Ping, etc. but it still comes down to a quality fitting and how certain clubs feel. Each person has a different feel for clubs. One person will tell you this club is like butter while right next to him another person is saying it feels like a lump of lead. There are companies in the US that make clubs the equal of or really close to the Japanese and they care about their product and making money which isn’t a sin. Ping and Titleist are two examples. Pick the clubs you want to buy and if possible hit them. Pick the ones you like the best and get a quality fitting. US or Japanese it doesn’t matter. Just one more thing – I played with a 76 yr old gentleman once who had the biggest mish mash of clubs in his bag I’ve ever seen. An old McGregor 5 iron, a beat up Ping 7 iron and so on. Shot a 73 from the white tees which measured out to about 6300+. They didn’t cost $2000. You can’t buy talent, you have to work and practice. No matter the quality, if you can’t hit a golf ball no price will make a difference. I will say that those $2000 clubs will look good on the cart until you duck hook your first shot into the woods.

      Reply

      Jimmy Tester

      8 years ago

      Isn’t the technology of royal collection and Sonartec from 12 to 15 years ago what’s hot now?

      Reply

      Count Tyrone Rugen

      8 years ago

      Let’s take Epon as example. Epon is a subsidiary of Endo. Endo primarily makes car parts. They make golf clubs as an expensive hobby. Endo does some of their golf forging in thier Niigata facility, but most of the work is done just outside of Bangkok. Now they can forge a great looking club and and as forged has a more consistent weight tolerance than an as-cast head. Also depending on the amount of dies you can almost net forge the head. This means you don’t need to polish off as much material on a forged head than a cast, thus not polishing out the shape.

      So an Epon forging and a US OEM forging will pretty much cost the same. you’re paying for the JDM market. They’re more expensive because they can be. the JDM market can spend a little more on the club knowing they are getting close to a 75% margin.

      Now, Endo as most golf nerds know also forges or had forged some of the major OEM’s over the years, not just wedges and irons but also forging titanium drivers and fairways.

      When it comes to club tolerance there are a couple of factors. 1) stacking the tolerance of the other components 2) cost 3) cost.

      If a company is willing to spend the cash on a tighter tolerance shaft, grip and components it’s they are more likely to build a club with tighter tolerances. (When it comes to steel shafts, there are is no magic process they make these they usually sort by weight and cherry pick for their customer. The rest gets packaged to standard OEM)

      Otherwise, club tolerances are governed by the shaft static and swing weight and the grip weight and lead weights int the head. That’s why you see US OEM’s have larger Swingweight tolerances.

      Reply

      Jon Rygh

      8 years ago

      Something has to be said about looks and status. Even people driving pick up trucks know that. Golf is a luxury activity and you might as well feel good about it. Whether you spend $1000 or $2000 on your irons probably makes no real difference in the overall cost of the game over the lifetime of a set. I actually think the Japanese approach is very exciting and for the most part represents the highest standard of taste. This is not any different to buying a Scotty putter for $400 versus an equally well performing Ping Anser for half that price. it’s all bout the bling and how you feel about having the right clubs for you (whatever your reason) in the bag. Calling people dumb, may just be a reflection of the author’s narrow mindedness. If you don’t get it it may be on you.

      Reply

      Chris C.

      8 years ago

      Are JDM clubs better or superior ? You concede that their build quality is superior and that their materials are superior. You conclude that the clubs themselves are not superior because the flaws in non-JDM equipment can be remedied by a little bit of bending and tape. This appears to be the central theme of this article. If this is the best you can do, any one with the financial wherewithal to do so should run out and purchase JDM equipment. I have read Wishon’s musings regarding JDM equipment and he does not concede that their build quality in inherently superior and he most certainly does not concede that their materials are better than that which he is able to obtain from foundries in China. His arguments for foregoing JDM equipment are far more persuasive than those advanced in this article. If you were a NASCAR driver, would you prefer to start the race in an undamaged car or one which has kissed the wall but is still able to get around the track thanks to a little metal bending and the judicious use of duct tape?

      Reply

      John Duval

      8 years ago

      It’s funny how everyone in Japan wants the shit we have in the US, while everyone in the US wants the shit they have in Japan…

      Reply

      Vic

      8 years ago

      Good point Duval. I see that every time I’m in the grocery store. All the illegals and some legal I suppose, mostly from S. America and MessiKo are always buying filtered water in jugs. If we go to MessiKo we know not to drink anything but bottled water. See I could have wrote this article.
      I have one Japanese made club a Tight Lies 3 wood that I haven’t had the chance to play yet. Think it will be fine for what I intend it for, after I re-shaft it!

      Reply

      Jun Nakiri

      8 years ago

      True. A club has a head, a shaft and a grip. The real artistry is building a club that fits a player. Having sad that, consistency of a set is better with the JDM. I owned a set of Mizuno from its custom dept and Macgregor also from its custom department. I loved the Macgregor. Muirfield that Jack brought tonthe market at the height of the company. The head design, finish, swing weight all said Mizuno out performed Macgregor. But I loved Muirfield set and kept them in the bag for 20 plus years until they were stolen from the trunk of my car. The point? If you play golf to make a living, every bit of precision counts. For amatuours, the beauty is for the eyes of beholder. Not the precision.
      And I come from Japan.

      Reply

      Martin

      8 years ago

      This is about the least informative article I’ve ever read on golfspy. Pure click bait. Sorry I wasted 5 minutes of my day on it. The author should have spent more than five minutes on the logic of the argument.

      Reply

      Hula_Rock

      8 years ago

      As a long time member of My Golf Spy…

      I Agree.

      Reply

      Jack

      8 years ago

      I have Miura baby blades, hybrids, 3 wood and driver. They are without a doubt the best I have ever played. I also have a set of Epons that I love as backups. There is no feel like a well struck Miura iron. Sorry Chris, but your arguments are subjective and have no substance in fact.

      Reply

      Chris Nickel

      8 years ago

      By the same token, anyone can say “There’s no feel like a Ping, Mizuno, Bridgestone, Titleist, etc” So what? What isn’t subjective is that the tighter tolerances achieved by JDM make no difference in terms of performance, yet well intentioned people are fed this BS all the time.

      Reply

      Jamie McCormack

      8 years ago

      IMO only buy JDM even if you have to save money a little longer as it will be worth it

      Reply

      hula_Rock

      8 years ago

      This ……… You hit the nail right on the head.

      Kyle Morris February 24, 2016 at 10:35 am

      This is awful. Not very different from telling someone they have no business buying a Mercedes Benz because a Prius is going to get them from point A to point B just as good. Don’t tell people how to spend their money. Perception is something you can not control, nor is perceived value. If they want to pay for what they consider a better experience, higher quality product, etc. then let them. It really is no different than a Mercedes vs a Prius/Chevy/etc.
      _____________________________________________________________

      Rolex – Casio, Cuban Cigar – Domestic Cigar…. You could go on forever. This article is walking on thin ice. Is JDM is threat to Golf BB’s? sure it is. If the popularity were to explode and readers wanted a review of JDM equipment, cost wise it would be impossible even for the bigger sites since Demos, Media Kits, etc are almost non-existent. Only option would be to purchase the set outright. For me, I will stick to my Prius, G-shock, and Fuente cigar. Once the money tree I planted in the back yard bares its fruit, I’ll consider JDM, PXG, or XYZ. It’s my money, your not going to tell me how to spend it.

      Reply

      Chris Nickel

      8 years ago

      No one is telling anyone how to spend money. If anything, I’m saying make sure you’re a critical consumer of information before you make a decision. As with all the tired examples of Rolex, etc.it depends entirely on the buyer and how they define performance, and whether or not they’re willing to pay a premium for whatever that difference may or may not be. Some cars are faster or use more exotic materials. Some have hand-tuned engines, etc. Some are status symbols and people want to portray a certain image. Buy whatever you want for whatever reason you want, but don’t be surprised when people laugh at you when you tell them your Rolex is better at keeping time – because that’s exactly what someone is saying when they claim JDM is “better” than brand _______.

      As far as JDM being a threat? As long as their price point remains where it’s at relative to other product, I don’t see a threat. Far too many buyers are too value conscious (cost relative to performance) right now – Thanks for your thoughts.

      Reply

      Hula_Rock

      8 years ago

      If a person spends HIS/HER hard earned money on JDM because they think its better WHO CARES ? This WINDED article calling JDM to the carpet makes ZERO sense. Whats Next ?

      I got one for ya……

      How about calling PXG to the carpet ?

      I TRIPLE DOG DARE YOU ………..

      Tom54

      8 years ago

      Comparing a Mercedes to a Prius is not the right analogy here nor is the author telling people how they should spend their money. A more apt analogy is wine tasting. Every so often, you’ll read about a study where a group of people blind tasted some samples of wines and really couldn’t tell the difference between the brands. However, if you told them up front that one taste was from a $10 bottle and the other was from a $100 bottle, people would typically say the $100 sample tasted better. It’s not really that they could tell much of a difference, but their preconceived notion was that the more expensive bottle must be better.
      Judging by the comment Tony made somewhere in the thread here about $80 balls not selling but $100 balls being bought, people will always have a belief that because something costs more, it must be better. Of course, there is the saying, you get what you pay for.

      Joe Golfer

      8 years ago

      Hula_Rock, that one made me laugh, in a good way. I’m not being sarcastic here.
      I liked your comment about calling PXG to the carpet.
      I don’t think that’s ever going to happen here, especially after the original gushing article about the PXG founder, that “GoDaddy” guy.
      You raise a good point.
      The article’s author raises some good points as well. I don’t necessarily disagree with him on many points.
      Still, it seems like MyGolfSpy has gotten down to writing a lot more highly opinionated articles, such as this one, the one about the PGA tournament being a sh*t show, and the PXG stuff as examples.
      MyGolfSpy bills itself as bringing you the truth that others won’t necessarily give you due to sponsor censorship, but it just seems like some of the recent articles are biased to suit the author’s opinions.
      I still like the testing reviews comparing different products, but the editorial articles are sure getting a lot of criticism from many corners on the forums.

      Butch

      8 years ago

      Cheap US branded clubs with plastic and dampeners produced in China or well-made Japanese irons forged in one of their plants from a block of carbon steel. I can tell you which I”ll go with in terms of quality every single time. It’s not even close.

      Reply

      Chris Nickel

      8 years ago

      Plenty of quality forged irons in the US as well – but it seems like the JDM faithful really prefer to focus on only portions of a much larger conversation which support their buying decisions.

      Reply

      Nap

      8 years ago

      You are abasolutely right partner. Most clubs sold here are made in china. No quality control.

      Reply

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      Yes, most clubs are made in China, but your assertion of ‘no quality control’ is absolutely incorrect.

      Everyone has tolerances. Those tolerances are essentially dictated to the factory by the OEM. The tighter the tolerance the more it costs to produce. That cost gets passed on to the consumer, and so average tolerances are what they are to keep prices in check.

      The Chinese are every bit as capable of producing product to the same specs as Japanese factories. The mass market doesn’t require it…won’t pay for it. That’s the entirety of reality…anything beyond that is mythology.

      You honestly believe there’s a quantifiable performance difference based exclusively on the country of origin?

      Oldplayer

      8 years ago

      Well done Tony. You have just articulated just why JDM clubs are better.

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      That’s a fairly narrow interpretation. What I actually articulated is that many JDM clubs are manufactured to tighter tolerances (generally 1/4° to 1/2° and +/- a few grams in weight) compared to mass market clubs – and that those standards have nothing to do with being manufactured in Japan. These are all things Chris mentioned in his article…all things that should be accounted for when you buy custom fit.

      It should also be mentioned that with modern manufacturing techniques, like those used in Chinese factories, the world tolerance doesn’t speak to frequency of error. So while PING, as an example, may have stated tolerances of +/- 1° a significant majority of what actually ships from China is within what I suppose we could call JDM tolerances.

      And of course, we’ve limited the discussion to tolerances and to a lesser degree materials. We haven’t even discussed performance. For the average golfer, what does the JDM market offer that compares favorably from a technology standpoint to say a PING G-series, or TaylorMade RSi/PSi?

      In blade and players cavity back designs, the technology is certainly no better (feel is subjective…and I’m a Miura guy in that respect), but when we move into performance categories (or clubs for guys that need some help) there’s a myth that craftsmanship and attention to detail, and in some cases that pixie dust Chris mentioned actually trumps technology…and that’s just not reality.

      Ultimately, the average golfer… is he going to be better of with, for example, and Endo CB manufactured for the JDM market (largely vanity driven), or with a so-called mass produced PING iron, or even a mass-produced (yet still forged by Endo) Nike Forging like the Vapor Pro Combo?

      There’s nothing wrong with JDM, and I’m on record (see my previous Miura articles) as one who appreciates the craftsmanship, details, etc., but if the ultimate goal is to shoot lower scores, there’s nothing inherent in JDM designs that justifies the higher cost.

      John Muir

      8 years ago

      Not exclusively on country of origin. But if you’re interested in quantifying things, I’ll see if I can get you some demo #7 iron component heads from Hiskei (perimeter weighted, 1020 Japan forged component iron heads) and you can test them to your heart’s content. Test them vs. any US OEM or JDM. They even make them without paint fill so you can pimp them. Component vs. OEM, Japan vs. US in one clubhead! Perfect for the mygolfspy gang.

      John Muir

      Jordan Speeth

      8 years ago

      Butch-
      I just got my new set of Mizuno MP-25s and sadly, the slot cover on the back of the club is a cheap looking piece of chrome ABS….plastic. I can hardly believe it. I love the clubs but I’m so bothered by the plastic trim (that looks terrible, BTW….no excuse for it) that I’m thinking of switching to the Srixon 745 that I wanted in the first place. No plastic trim on my irons please… I prefer JDM equipment because they DON’T do stuff like this.

      Reply

      Simon

      8 years ago

      The article completely misses the point. Yes there is no difference in performance between JDM and USDM. The point is that the Japanese market demands premium forgings. That’s just what they want. They are prepared to pay for it as well. Whereas the US market is more price sensitive and focused far more on functionality over aesthetics. That’s why Ping is an American company and Miura is Japanese. The European market also demands a more pure product as well. This all boils down to market preference. The products reflect this. Even the USDMs offer premium forgings just for Asia. Think of the Callaway Legacy Black irons. Titleist even released a forged set of AP1s for the Korean market. So you would expect that Japanese golf manufacturers would cater to this market preference to a far greater extent. And that’s what they do. Looks and feel are paramount for them. For yanks price and function are the most important aspects.

      Reply

      Chris Nickel

      8 years ago

      You’re missing a huge point here which is that the forgings in Japan AREN’T any better – The increased cost is a function of the increased labor required to get the specs they want – not the raw materials. But don’t take my word for it – http://wishongolf.com/forged-irons-from-japan-vs-us-or-china-the-facts/

      Reply

      Simon

      8 years ago

      Chris, if you actually read my comment you’d notice that I said that there is no difference in performance! Japanese prefer looks and feel. The products that their manufacturers make reflect this PREFERENCE. Notice I said preference not performance lol.

      Chris Nickel

      8 years ago

      I did read your comment and you state the Japanese market demands “premium forgings” – I took that to mean you felt premium = better. If that wasn’t the case, my bad. But, there’s no evidence that irons forged in Japan feel any better than irons forged in China. Unfortunately, that’s simple the truth.

      Simon

      8 years ago

      Yes I referred to “premium” forgings. You can have premium forged USDM products as well. I even mentioned some of them in my original comment. Perhaps there is no difference in the quality of material used, which is what you seem to be saying. Despite performance, the Asian market simply prefers forged product. If some yanks buy into this philosophy and are prepared to pay for it, so what? If you purchase any product then presumably you think that it is “better” than some other product. What you are really saying is that you PREFER thus product over the ones you didn’t buy. It’s all about preference. The reasons given may be misconstrued. But if someone buys an expensive JDM product based on looks and feel, then why the hell would anyone have a problem with that.

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      Simon touches on a key piece of the larger puzzle that I’d guess that most of us in the USA aren’t aware of.

      The Japanese Domestic Market for golf equipment is largely a lifestyle market where there’s a tremendous emphasis on price. The more expensive the better (even if it’s actually not). The emphasis on performance isn’t what it tries to be here. It really is much more about aesthetics, craftsmanship, and expense.

      I’ll leave names out, but two quick stories spring to mind…

      One PGA Show not long a go, a Japanese reseller wanted to purchase an entire booth’s worth of putters from a company who most of us would probably consider botique. Hiccups occurred when the manufacturer listed the average retail price in the $400 range. He was told his putters weren’t expensive-enough for the Japanese Market.

      I was on a site visit that included a tour of one company’s ball division. They showed us a ball designed for the Japanese market. Retail price was roughly $100 per dozen. When I asked why so much, the answer was we tried pricing them at $80/dozen and they didn’t sell.

      And yeah…costs can be a bit higher due to labor rates, but what you’re paying for is tolerances…and those same tolerances can be achieved using the same materials in just about any foundry in China. But again…tolerances are where the cost is, and the US consumer isn’t willing to absorb that cost.

      Chris Nickel

      8 years ago

      Tony – Hopefully, people will take the time to read your post – It’s an uncomfortable truth, but your two examples are spot on and are entirely indicative of what drives JDM pricepoints.

      Simon

      8 years ago

      One thing I appreciate about Japanese consumers and the Asian golfing market in general is that they aren’t given to technological gimmicks that the US manufacturers seem to trade off of. This gives them the design freedom to create aesthetically beautiful irons without any loss in performance over their US counterparts. For example, the PSi irons look like plastic Chinese knock offs. They perform well, but no one put much thought into the design aesthetics You think of face slots, 360 cup face and other such dubious “technologies”. I think Chris Voshall from Mizuno had it right when he said that this is specology rather than technology. Furthermore, when Japanese manufacturers come out with real technology with a scientific basis, such as Mizuno’s boron technology, I take this seriously. These are serious companies. Taylormade and Callaway clearly make very good product that performs well. But they take us for a ride with every product release.

      Gisle Solhaug

      8 years ago

      Japanese clubs have better FEEL? Can anyone even define the term FEEL? This is a term created by marketing people, not engineers.

      Skip

      8 years ago

      Japanese clubs don’t necessarily have better “feel”. Sure, feel is subjective, what feels great to one, may not feel that way to another but there are generalities that carry over across many golfers (i.e. generally players prefer a softer feel). So no, feel is not just some marketing buzzword. If you can’t feel the difference between a soft Endo forged head and a cast Taylormade Jetspeed or something, than maybe your game isn’t sufficient to appreciate. Not saying the Endo will necessarily be better, but there is definitely a difference in “feel”.

      Sti

      8 years ago

      Strange, I remember years ago us Europeans believed that our supposedly exact same equipment products were inferior to those being purchased in the USA.

      Reply

      Chris

      8 years ago

      I thought some of those people that dropped the big money on the JDM’s would be ripping you, and boy they have not disappointed.

      Reply

      Chris Nickel

      8 years ago

      That’s to be expected in this conversation. No surprise there.

      Reply

      Adrian

      8 years ago

      My argument would be if JDM are pushing the limits of club performance just like the U.S. based OEM’s are, AND their clubs are visually better looking…that is a better club if you are being fitted for said club. When I look at JDM clubs, most are just stunning to look at so if they perform on par with any other club out there and they look like works of art…..then they are putting out better product. Now the price points for JDM clubs does get up there but they wouldn’t be charging those prices if someone wasn’t paying those prices.

      If you polled a non golfer and had them look at pics of clubs and pick out the best looking 10….I’m certain that 8 of them would be JDM.

      Reply

      Chris Nickel

      8 years ago

      I think the only certainty is that if you polled 10 people, you’d get a variety of answers in terms of what makes an iron visually attractive. But as you said, they charge that much b/c people are willing to pay that much – which begs the question, why? If not performance, then what? Seems like the “status” argument as well as the under-informed buyer position are quite viable.

      Reply

      Adrian

      8 years ago

      JDM clubs surely perform just as well as any club other clubs do at any price point. But the kicker is that they flat out look amazing. Talk to Edel golf about just how long it takes to complete one club head and you will find out that it takes someone 3-4 hours per club head on their basic offerings. Right then the price is going to be higher depending on what country and at what pay rate those companies are operating in/at.

      The consumer in Japan says ” well great you make good golf clubs….but they look like crap…make them look nice and I’ll pay you for your effort.” And then this article is basically hating on the fact that some passionate people are creating the golf clubs that their customers want and being paid well for it….That is called a hater where I am from. What you also forget is that if golf clubs were forged in the U.S. and all the work was done stateside that the clubs prices would likely be double what they are now. That’s why they are made in other countries to begin with.

      stopthemadness

      8 years ago

      “And then this article is basically hating on the fact that some passionate people are creating the golf clubs that their customers want and being paid well for it….That is called a hater where I am from. ”

      An editorial article is not some ‘hate crime’. Hate/Hater is a strong word and is used to silence dissent and people from offering their opinions, and to discourage rational discourse. Is that what you are into? Silencing others so you can live in a tiny, insular, narcissistic world where only your opinion matters? If that’s the case, I’d ‘hate’ to be you. Truly.

      People have differing opinions when it comes to form versus function and that was all this article was drawing our attention towards. That’s not hate. The haters are the emotional ones (maybe you?) that ‘detest’ anyone who disagrees with them or who doesn’t see things their way. Using the term ‘hate’ is what causes problems where there shouldn’t be any. You were doing fine (more or less) up until the hate references, although I strongly disagree with your premise that “JDM clubs surely perform just as well as any club other clubs do at any price point.” (BTW-I’m pretty sure I understand what you meant, but that is a very poor sentence you wrote. Of course you probably think I’m a hater for pointing that out. You’d probably rather live with your ineptitude). Depends on what you mean by performance. Are you referring to forgiveness on off center hits? Or do you mean greater distance at same swing speed? Or… are you just hating to be hating?
      Warm regards!

      Adrian

      8 years ago

      Well your name says exactly what you should do (stopthemadness) as I hope that you aren’t insinuating that I am comparing someone’s opinion of some golf clubs to a hate crime? I wouldn’t be posting on a public golf forum discussion if my intent was to silence others….My post, just like the article, was written to create discussion, and both accounts were successful.

      The fact that JDM clubs are more expensive is the only reason this article was written because not one lick of actual evidence was given to prove that JDM’s are better or worse than any other companies clubs. You can strongly disagree with my point all you want but until you prove it your comments are just your opinion and we all have one of those. If you were talking from a perspective of saying that you were fitted for a JDM and a U.S. OEM and put them on trackman and put them through your paces then your opinion would carry more weight but just like the article did, all you did was interject your opinion.

      I play Miura irons, and they were the last of 15-20 different irons that I hit and ironically my other choice would have been the Mizuno MP-59. All the clubs were performing within a reasonable range. My choice came down to what price I was willing to pay, and what I liked to look at the most because all of the clubs were performing. My back up set of irons are a set of Cleveland 588 altitude irons that I paid 350 bucks for because they do exactly what I want them to do which is hit it high, straight, and offer me a lot of forgiveness during those time when I don’t get to play as much golf as I would like to, and my game is off.

      Never once did this article post head to head comparisons that prove his point, yet he conceded that in JDM clubs are made to tighter specs and use superior metal. Ummm wouldn’t that qualify as a better product? I say it does because the fact is that most people know they should be fitted for their clubs, yet most will still walk into a big box store and buy clubs off the rack. If no tangible evidence was given in the article to prove his point then basically he is “hating” on the fact that JDM clubs demand a higher premium….and their customers pay it. Aesthetically U.S. OEMs aren’t even close…but that is just my opinion.

      sixcat

      8 years ago

      I have owned Miura and Epon, yet my personal best round by a mile was with Wilson Staff irons. I was suckered into the “expensive is better” idea and paid a price for it. Two and a half time the price for each of the Miura’s and Epon’s to be exact.

      To me, the best judgement of a club is in the result. The result for me was higher scores and a lighter wallet.

      Reply

      Clay

      8 years ago

      Okay, let me see if I got this right:

      Thesis: There is no real difference between American and JDM clubs, except that you’ll probably pay more for JDM, which is therefore silly.

      Argument 1: JDM is built to tighter specs, but you can always add hot melt and lead tape to the American version so it’s wash. Yeah, not really. Point: JDM

      Argument 2: JDM is more expensive (which has nothing to do with quality but is certainly worth mentioning). From what I can see, they certainly do hold their resale value. Point: JDM

      Argument 3: “Artistry” is subjective. It sure is, and I for one think JDM are infinitely better looking than American counterparts (less busy, more classy). Furthermore, this opinion seems in line with the majority, albeit subjective. Point: JDM (democratically)

      Argument 4: JDM is made with superior metal but not with pixie dust. This is where the entire piece just fell apart. Again, JDM is superior in quality but you don’t get magical pixie dust. Really? And why was this argument buried in article? Hmm… Point: JDM

      Argument 5: JDM is not “flat out superior” to the competition… unless you get fit, then they are. Doesn’t this mean they are? Point: JDM

      Argument 6: All companies worry more about the bottom line than quality. This doesn’t really address the actual quality of the clubs so much as the approach of companies towards quality. But, as has been conceded, JDM specs are tighter, so there’s that. Point: JDM

      Conclusion: If you think JDM is superior to American then you should to read this article.

      Comment: I guess you’re right, since it actually suggests that JDM is in fact superior. This doesn’t mean it’s worth what needs to be paid, but that’s a separate argument. Is also doesn’t mean you’ll play better with JDM, but, again, that’s a separate argument.

      Reply

      Jdm

      8 years ago

      It’s funny because you’re comparing costs on some of the most expensive jdm brands out there. There are quality irons to be had like the onoff kuros for under $1000. It’s hard to find any set of usdm irons under $1000 these days. Especially with the weak yen, its a great time to dip your foot into jdm. In the end it’s about personal preference and to say buying jdm is just dumb man is pretty petty.

      Reply

      Chris Nickel

      8 years ago

      I politely disagree. I’m looking at the conversation from the perspective of performance, which I’ve always felt was pretty important when evaluating golf equipment. There’s no evidence anywhere which suggests the tighter tolerances of JDM products make any difference whatsoever. Hence the “inferior vs. superior” commentary.

      Whether or not you want to pay a premium for these tolerances which ultimately make no difference, is entirely up to the buyer.

      Reply

      John Muir

      8 years ago

      Chris:
      Are you saying tighter tolerances don’t make a difference in performance (US or JDM)? Or just that tighter JDM tolerances don’t make a difference? You’re right that a few grams or so wouldn’t be noticed by most golfers, but that doesn’t have anything to do with where it is manufactured.
      John Muir

      Uhit

      8 years ago

      Tighter tolerances in the loft / lie department are probably more important than a few grams here and there…

      …I remember two PING G20 driver, where the 9.5 version had more loft than the 10.5 deg version!
      Or a Callaway FT iz driver which had around 2 degree more loft than it should…
      …or a 1.5 mini-Driver, which has around two degree less loft (@11 deg setting) than it should.

      Now, imagine a iron set, where the 7 iron has roughly the same loft than the 6 and the 8 iron…

      …tighter tolerances help to avoid this.

      My only Japanese made irons are Mizuno (MP H5), and they are within +/- 0.5 degree accurate (loft wise), which is IMHO the maximum tolerance, that one should accept – and nothing to rave about.

      I would call a iron set, with +/- 1.0 (or more) degree (loft) tolerances, expensive garbage.

      Johnnie

      8 years ago

      This whole article was nothing more than a facebook rant. Verbal garbage.

      I think this guy just has a friend with a set a Miuras who probably brags about how awesome they are to him all the time, thus pissing him off enough into this rant.

      Reply

      Skip

      8 years ago

      Hilarious, this author is brutal. Why’s he even on here?

      Reply

      Jimberley

      8 years ago

      Normally I enjoy your writing Chris, but I am now dumber for having read your “rant” that says nothing, is not backed up with anything other than opinion, and basically, what was the point? Is this “question” even relevant for more than about 15 people in the world?
      I’m bummed out I made the mistake of reading it to the end…

      Reply

      Kyle Morris

      8 years ago

      This is awful. Not very different from telling someone they have no business buying a Mercedes Benz because a Prius is going to get them from point A to point B just as good. Don’t tell people how to spend their money. Perception is something you can not control, nor is perceived value. If they want to pay for what they consider a better experience, higher quality product, etc. then let them. It really is no different than a Mercedes vs a Prius/Chevy/etc.

      Reply

      SEM

      8 years ago

      Not really JDM, but every demo day @Orlando during the pga show, the best irons are by far the Japanese brands. Going to nippon booth and the fourteen, yonex or miura are much better than the Taylor made or callaway.

      Reply

      Kerry Cole

      8 years ago

      Interesting article.. I have gone the route of Miura vs Mizuno and in most cases the “feel” and “sound” were better with the Miura irons and did feel the quality was higher… with that being said.. I have also bought some Miura irons that really didn’t fit my swing style and they played like crappola for me.. the last set being the CB57 were superb to my steep swing.. but I was finally “properly fit” with a set of Edel irons/pitching wedges/putter………… and the difference is day and night.. the consistency is a lot better in my swing.. the only thing I do miss is the sound I did get from the Miura irons..My overall scores are better with Edel.. and it goes back to my weird swing.. to which the Edel fitting method is on the money.. Now, if I could ever get me and my driver to do the same???? I am not sure where the initial Edel forgings are made.. but the grinding is done in TX… so it is at least partly made in the USA..

      Reply

      Bob Pegram

      8 years ago

      The Edel heads are made in Japan and grinding done in Texas.

      Reply

      ROBO

      8 years ago

      This is GOSPIL. VERY !!!!!!!! well written Chris – and “write” on the money ;)

      I have personally had a MAJOR OEM stare me straight in the face and admit they sell diff JDM stuff at higher prices & different looking (cliff-notes condensed version) because it has to be to compete … even though “there is ZERO improvement in it – and it’s all hype & cosmetic illusion”

      ATTA BOY MGS & Chris / Jamboy

      Reply

      Chris Nickel

      8 years ago

      Thanks Robo…I know how divisive this topic can be, but I’m always amazed by some of the responses….

      Reply

      Joro

      8 years ago

      Anyone know where most of the “American” clubs are made ? Surprise.

      Reply

      Andrew Pavlov

      8 years ago

      China.. what’s is your point?

      Reply

      Shadow

      8 years ago

      China! What is the point? Here is an article on why China cant make ball point pens!

      http://www.marketplace.org/2015/12/10/world/why-cant-china-make-good-ballpoint-pen

      Also have ever heard of the 4th shift in China? QC in china is a massive issue!

      Jason Geraci

      8 years ago

      Well articulated. Now let the discussion begin

      Reply

      Uhit

      8 years ago

      It is probably mostly good to take a lot of factors into consideration,
      when it is about to buy equipment…

      …however, the psychological aspect, which you can’t quantify on a datasheet…

      …is there – during every stroke.

      You know this for sure:

      “Nothing feels like a Mizuno”

      …hmmm, well…

      …”Nothing feels like a Taylormade”…

      …”Nothing sounds like a PING”

      But is this really good – for you?

      I learn faster, if I feel the misshit…
      …however, I like the feel of a real good hit much better.

      What should I buy?

      A always similar good feel, or a seldom, mind boggling outstanding hyper feel?

      I can imagine, that it makes sense to use different clubs, for training, leisure, or competition…
      …or even the living room ;-)

      It is always good to have a choice and that it is up to you to decide – isn’t it?

      Reply

      Geo Golfx

      8 years ago

      One of the key things actually missing, is playable design. If anyone has played offerings from the 80’s 90’s 2000’s from Daiwa, Mizuno, Yonex, Yamaha and others….. the short irons are always the let down. Not on all, but many. The 7-8-9-PW on many are far too deep in the heel. And even some int he longer irons. Many blades look amazing, But the MP14 Mizuno and MP29 Mizuno were great looking and playing blades. While the MS/MP7’s were a bad design IMHO. Not everyone hits home runs…. but that always seemed to be a constant in their design.

      Reply

      Ryan Holcomb

      8 years ago

      Does the deep heel design benefit a strike closer to the heel? Perhaps, that would make them more playable for the types that hit towards the heel?

      Reply

      Bryan Kloss

      8 years ago

      On uneven lies the larger heel can have an affect on the dynamic loft where as shallower heals have less so.

      Reply

      PS Chanman

      8 years ago

      <3 the bowie reference... (y)

      Reply

      Kevin Unterreiner

      8 years ago

      Reading these MyGolfSpy articles is one of the highlights of my week. Honestly.

      Reply

      MyGolfSpy

      8 years ago

      Man…really appreciate that Kevin. THANKS!

      Reply

      JG

      8 years ago

      Sorry Chris but this is a bias article if I’ve ever read one. I game JDM wedges, Fourteens with Nippon Modus 3 shafts and in some crazy thing Golf Pride grips, because I am comfortable with them. Now I put my wedges up against brand new Vokeys, Callaways and Cleveland’s and there was no contest. The Fourteens were insanely superior and it didn’t take a self proclaimed equipment junkie like you to figure it ou . I’d love to make a move to Miura irons fulltime but I can not justify the means with a wife, child and mortgage.

      If you don’t understand that Miura is better you don’t get it.

      Reply

      geemac

      3 years ago

      I recall a saying, “A win on Sunday. Sell heaps on Monday.” This saying isn’t limited to golf clubs. It extends to auto sales, etc.
      Tiger wins on Sunday with whatever brand of TW clubs, balls, apparel, bags and sponsor products = an increase in sales on Monday. How many of us recall the TW pitch up to the rear of the 16th Par 3 at Augusta, where the ball appeared to take forever to reach the cup and then, by the wishes of the Nike marketing Gods, the Nike logo appeared and subsequently flashed itself globally, as the ball every golfer MUST have in their bag. Sales went through the roof. Nike and Tiger made $millions in ball sales and we can’t forget the TW irons being the means to play golf the TW way. Nike was the brand name, but who manufactured the ball and clubs? Certainly not Nike! Where is Nike golf now?
      It is documented that TW played with tolerance tested Japanese‘prototype’ clubs, shafts and balls. Why is TW now using TM products? If we look closely at TW’s equipment, we see strong similarities to JDM products from an OEM who sells mass produced copies with a tolerance caveat of +/- 3-5g variants in head weight and +/- 1-3*deg variants in loft and/or lie. Notwithstanding the impact these variants impose on playability, millions of golfers head to their local golf retailer with a brand in mind, they hit maybe 20 well used balls towards a screen and within (say) 30-minutes, they have presented their plastic and purchased an OEM product. They are excited, they tell everyone about their purchase, they collect their purchase and head for the driving range or the golf club with high expectations of smashing the course record, winning their club championships and reducing their handicap substantially. Then reality sets in! Their clubs don’t perform to expectation. Their golf buddies are questioning why such an expensive purchase isn’t delivering the scores as expected? Another golfer quietly unveils his new JDM armoury and 18-holes later, he is proudly justifying the ROI based on the facts within his scorecard. What is the difference between the OEM golfer and the JDM golfer? Me! Yeah me! I failed to mention there was a timeframe between the OEM golfer unveiling his new purchase and the JDM golfer unveiling his new purchase. The difference? Personalised club fitting by a highly reputed club fitter at an outdoor facility, using new ProV balls – not used, scruffy mixed variety or inconsistent range balls. The heads are perfectly swing weighted, the shafts are ‘pure’ and spine aligned, the grips are of measured size and quality. Nothing was questionable. The fitting fee was entirely justifiable and the ensuing scorecard results clearly posed another question, is “what wins on Sunday really the Best Buy on Monday?”
      I beg to differ, but this is merely my experience and my opinion. Don’t be an OEM ‘impulse’ golfer. Consider paying for a specialised club fitting. The rewards are immense and the ROI is substantial. Hit ‘em long, Hit ‘em straight and with newly measured accuracy and tempo.. Good golfing to you.

      Reply

    Leave A Reply

    required
    required
    required (your email address will not be published)

    This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

    Best Spikeless Golf Shoes 2024 Best Spikeless Golf Shoes 2024
    Buyer's Guides
    Apr 12, 2024
    Best Spikeless Golf Shoes of 2024
    First Look
    Apr 12, 2024
    Under Armour’s Cheesy Take on the Masters
    News
    Apr 12, 2024
    PING WebFit: Get Fit From your Phone
    ENTER to WIN 3 DOZEN

    Titleist ProV1 Golf Balls

    Titleist ProV1 Golf Balls
    By signing up you agree to receive communications from MyGolfSpy and select partners in accordance with our Privacy Policy You may opt out of email messages/withdraw consent at any time.