Labs

TESTED: Flagstick In (vs) Flagstick Out?

BY MyGolfSpy
Jan 16th 2019
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Imagine playing basketball without a backboard?

A study of over 1,000,000 simulated basketball shots done by engineers at North Carolina State University showed basketball players shot 20% better by using the backboard. Or as Natalie Morris of NetBall says, “No contest. A backboard is cheating in my opinion.”

As golfers, we are looking for every advantage we can get to shooting lower scores. However, most prefer not to cheat or break traditions to get that advantage. Thanks to USGA rule change 13.2a(2) leaving the flagstick (aka backboard) in while you putt is no longer considered cheating or breaking tradition.

So, now that you can leave the pin in, naturally the next question is should you leave it in?

FLAG IN (or) FLAG OUT?

With such a potentially game-changing topic with no definitive answers, we needed to test this inside the MyGolfSpy LAB. We want to know once and for all, if should you leave the pin in or pull it out.

Even the guys that do this for a living are split on the topic. Bryson Dechambeau says he will be leaving the pin in whenever he can. Justin Thomas said, “I can’t really take myself seriously if I kept the pin in.” And Phil? Well, Phil often has his caddie tend the pin from 70 or more yards out. Who’s right?

Is it possible that by leaving the flag in it will help all golfers make more putts and even improve their misses? Let’s find out.

HOW WE TEST

The purpose of this study was to gain an understanding of the resulting effect that exists when a golfer leaves the flag in vs. the flag out during a round of golf. This was done to ultimately determine the make vs. miss % and the resulting distance of putts that were missed.

In our initial research, it was found that 1) SPEED – no matter the distance of the putt or whether it is downhill, sidehill, uphill or flat…it is the speed at which the ball arrives at the hole which affects the result 2) COR – the coefficient of restitution of the flagstick (stiffness of the flag) can impact the results. The stiffer the flag, the less energy it absorbs from the ball.

Two flag types make up the majority that golfers will encounter at their local golf course. Flag type #1 is less rigid and absorbs more energy from the ball on contact. Flag type #2 is more rigid and absorbs less energy from the ball on contact.

We tested the two most common types of flagsticks
We rolled putts with the pin-in and pin-out
We tested both center strikes and off-center strikes on the flagstick
We tested with the flag leaning forward and back
To guarantee the most reliable results, we used a putting machine called the Perfect Putter
Each test was run at three different speeds
We tested with putts that would roll 3 ft, 6ft, and 9 ft past the hole
We collected the resulting distance of missed putts
We recorded both the make and miss % from all putts at all distances

THE DATA

OBSERVATIONS

Leaving the flagstick is always an advantage vs. taking the flagstick out
Leaving the flagstick in also keeps the ball closer to the hole on misses
The less rigid flagstick has the highest make % and least distance after a miss
The most rigid flagstick is still an advantage for both makes and misses vs. flagstick out
Dead center strikes on the flagstick provided the best make % while leaving the shortest remaining distance to the hole on misses
Off-center strikes on the flag still provided a higher make % vs. flagstick out
While the advantage is not as significant leaning the stick forward (toward the golfer) is still an advantage vs. taking the flag out

VERDICT

Don’t let the tradition of pulling the flag out while you putt get in the way of shooting lower scores.

Leave the pin in.

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comments

Join The Discussion

Blair

11 months ago

Where does flagstick diameter come into play! Around here, many courses have much thicker sticks; And I’ve seen many balls that would have been IN rejected by the thicker pin. It’s great advice if the sticks are small, but I’m curious if this is still true for the thicker pins.

Ana Carol

1 year ago

I found it interesting how you tested both center strikes and off-center strikes on the flagstick and the impact it had on the make percentage and distance of missed putts. My question is, were the results consistent across different levels of golfer skill, or did you notice any differences in the outcomes based on the golfer’s skill level?

Tony

5 years ago

Personally, I prefer the flag left in when the putt distance is over 20 – 30 feet or changes levels. Other than that, “out please”. Not sure the objective of speeding up play has been acheived though. I’ve played in a number of 4 balls in comps where (usually) one person wants the flag left in all the time. That means a continual removal and replacement of the flag, and that eats up time as well as being irritating.

Jason

2 years ago

And we find you flag pullers irritating. Why is your preference more important than ours?

graham

This was very useful, but the article did not specify the green speed or if the putts were on flat ground. This might be good to clarify in the article itself. Clearly it is a bit of a no-brainer that flagstick in is better when putts are hit too hard (especially 6 feet and 9 feet too hard as tested). Of more relevance, for those of us with reasonable control of pace is what the data looks like for better paced putts like those with a pace of less than 3ft too hard, including “ideal pace” putts, like 1.5 feet or the Pelz (17″) too hard.
Also for the full range of off-center hits. Thanks again.

P.J.

I’m amazed at the number of comments!! Obviously people have their own opinions, regardless of data. A wise (and funny man) once said – ‘don’t screw up my argument with facts and logic’!!
Two common phrases heard in our weekend foursome “Bang the stick” and “Hit the pin and it’ll go in”, which you can probably tell means we’re proponents of leaving the stick in. It’s also a good way to remind ourselves to get the ball to the hole. Thanks to MGS for another great article (and debate).

Cecil

Your testing does not factor in wind conditions. Putting on a sunny, windy day with the stick rattling in the cup, both the pole and flag casting whipping shadows on the green and the sound of the fluttering flag are all extremely off-putting. None of the above are present when the flag is out or possibly attended by one’s partner or caddy.

Skeptikk

3 years ago

If a flapping flag causes you to miss putts, you really need to work more on your concentration. In addition to the stick itself helping to make more putts, so will the added concentration. A win-win.

STEPHEN PEARCY

Was the sample size large enough for statistically significant results? Was the the diameter of the two flag sticks the same? What happens if the flag stick isn’t perfectly straight in the hole? Is the hole edge more likely to be damaged when the ball is retrieved? Possibly two factors influencing the results: 1)the physics of interaction of the ball and the flag stick and 2) the subjective influence on player aiming and pace. Suggest robot testing for the first factor.

Soren Hansen

Have you mentioned from which distance the putts were hit? 6 feet past the hole from a 6 feet distance is in my opinion not relevant.

Personally I am old style and prefer to take the pin out from within 25 feet.

Thanks for the good work

L. Brown

I prefer leaving the pin in.

Deadeye

I leave it in. All I know for sure is that the only putt harder than an eight footer for par is a come back eight footer for bogey.

Jim golf

I think it has slowed play not helped speed it up and here is why; in my particular case we have a club with caddies, we have a regular group of 12 -16 guys playing on any given day. Before the new rule once everyone was on the green the pin got pulled. Now some guys want it in, some want it out, some want in for long putts and out for short putts, so the caddies are going back forth. It has definitely added 15-20 mins per round and we used to play very fast. I wish the rule would have been you MUST leave the flag in then indeed regardless of scientific data would speed up play.

Rick Lefebvre

Agree 100%. We dont have caddies so it takes even longer. Everyone gets confused and has to in or out all the time. And someone that is playing has to do it. It just makes for more work and confusion. I just say its out all the time for me. . The other day guys are standing there after they finish their putt with the pin in and just walk away when they know I want it out. Then I look at them and they have to go back and take it out. Really Dumb rule ruining
The game

Peter

I find leaving the pin in gives me better depth perception and also gives a better target to aim at.Just make the hole bigger so it makes it easier to get the ball out of the cup.This would speed up play even more as well as making the game easier for all.Think how popular golf would be if we were all playing off scratch,just like Donald Trump.lol

KM

This is a bogus test. First of all, how far the ball would have gone past the hole is IRRELEVANT. What really matters is the speed the ball is traveling as it crosses the plane of the hole, theres an ideal speed regarless on whether the flagstick is in or not. If you can see the hole location better as a result of leaving the flagstick in then it will help the golfer with his judgement of distance,

Lance

Irrelevant???? There is an ideal speed with which a putt should be hit however this test shows that leaving the flag in gives you a greater margin for error should you miss the ideal speed. Also with the flag in the ball stays closer to the hole when you miss that ideal speed. It’s a win win

Speed is very important and if you have to rely on the pin stopping your ball from going to far past the hole, then you are not a good putter and need to work on that. Leaving the pin in distracts me from my focus on where I really want to hit the ball. I dont want to see anything in my way and certainly not a flag that’s blowing in the wind. Many times I dont even see the hole because I want to see the line. If you keep your head down you shouldn’t see the hole. If I see a pin there then that thought is in my mind when Im trying to see the line. Pin out works for me. But you do whatever works for you.
Just dont put me out of my routine by leaving it in when its my turn

Like l said leaving it it could be a visual advantage which was not tested so the test is incomplete and bogus.

John Willson

When Bryson DeChambeau decided to leave the pin in that ended the question for me. He does nothing without scientific evidence. He may tinker too much, but not about things like the number of puts that go in. Climate change is probably junk science, but puts made with the pin in you can take to the bank.

Ed Baartman

Makes a lot of sense. You’re skeptical of the physics worked out by hundreds of PhD scientists, but accept without question conclusions drawn by amateur scientist DeChambeau.

Greg

4 years ago

I’m guessing funding and jobs were not an an incentive for the people reporting their stick in or out testing.

Spot on Greg!

Daniel C

Great test but even if the new rule does or does not speed up play for the players in the group . It sure speeds up play for the group behind you since laser rangefinders are used by so many . I know I don’t have to wait for last player in front group to putt out put flag in and walk away .So you get a yardage earlier select club and get ready earlier which overall should speed up my play

Richard A.

Daniel makes a good point. I have also noticed that leaving the pin in does speed up approach shots by allowing rangefinders to key up on the flag while awaiting the players in front to clear the hole. Of course, if every player does not take advantage of this (and most cannot because it appears on my home course that they are using their own estimates and/or a range watch/ and/or distance markers and NOT lasers) then the rear players are still stuck with slow play by the players on the green.

If a course were really interested in increasing speed of play then it would equip all carts with accurate range finders and make available such devices to walking players. That will probably never happen because of the costs involved and unless the manufactures produce carts with range finding devices built in to the carts.

GMD

Great article …thanks

Hi
No one has mentioned that public courses have people that don’t know HOW to take a pin out.
The result is by the end of the day, the cup is one inch wide, due to the cup having been pulled up, creating a volcano. You either ram it in the middle, or it slides off the sides of the volcano. I REALLY hope this cuts down on people pulling the pin that don’t know how.

Doesn’t solve the getting the ball out of the cup in a way that doesn’t create a volcano, or does it?

Joe Boselli

I love leaving the pin in. Especially with low COR flagsticks. Anything to help me out on the greens, I will try! It’s crazy not to give this a chance because you’re “an old school” golfer. Stop it. It’s 2019. Get with it.

Jim

Flag in/out. I don’t like the flag if you do that’s ok.
Missing putts by 3,6,9 feet past. For me that’s a little bit to much. However that happens to be the distances that 80% of my practice puts ate preformed from. I think that most people don’t practice putting enough. I find it amazing that during a Sunday blind draw 4 ball , that at least one person has no idea how to read a putt.

I think that most people would benefit from practice more than leaving the flag in. Or practice putting with the flag in
Point is practice. Get your distances closer, your next putt will be a kick in.

Take a lesson, on form, take a lesson on reads. Practice.

I have been observing the various handicap players in my groups. Some of the pin in people are slamming there puts 3,6,9 feet past the hole in the hope that it hits the pin and goes in. All the while still missing the hole completely. Come on now it’s not a magic cure all.

Putting practice for me.
1: Distance 1st. I aim at a hole but a don’t care if it goes in, just getting the speed.

2: straight uphill/downhill. For speed and direction. Make all of these from 6 feet.

3: 3 balls, 2 feet apart, from 3 feet, make them, circule around the hole.

3: repeat from 6 and 9feet.
4: do some Brad maxon putts, 20 feet or more. Looking fro kick ins if you miss.

You are dead on. Practice is the key. I always spend time on the greens before I start a round to get the speed. I do long medium and short putts.
Im an 11hcp and rarely 3 putt and my long putts rarely go more than 2 feet past or 2 feet short. 2 putting or less on every green really speeds play up.
3 puuts for 2 or 3 players out of 4 takes an eternity , Go practice and your scores and time to play will come down

Chip Millard

I play at a club off island from Hilton Head. We’ve had almost 5 months of play with the new pin rule. For the most part it’s irrelevant. Most putts miss the hole completely. Most everyone leaves the pin in. Some remove it when they are close to hole for mental reasons far more than for physical ones. I’m a trained scientist so hopefully my bias is minimal. I have observed that the pin in is slightly more helpful that a detriment. It certainly helps pace of play.
As for the GD observation that picking the ball out of the hole with pin in will increase hole damage is unfounded. we’ve had far less damage than when the pins were removed. The heavy end of pin used to bang into the side of the hole when pulled out by the one handed golfer rather than the two handed caddie. Doesn’t much anymore. LEAVE IT IN.

Cigarsmoker

Now I’m confused even more. Your test says leave it in; Golf Digest says leave it out. Since my putting with the pin out is really poor (usually short) I’ll leave it in for a while to determine if it helps me reach the hole more consistently.

…or perhaps I just need to practice more…

HikingMike

7 months ago

I also have to bring this up. Golf Digest’s article on the testing done by Professor Tom Mase shows a very different answer. Testing was actually fairly similar – flag in/out, on-center vs off-center hits, different “run past distance” putt speeds considered.

“For that theoretical 27.6 percent of putts that would hit the flagstick straight on, the advantage of leaving the flagstick in vs. out for holing those putts only begins to manifest itself when the pace of the putt is greater than rolling nine feet past the hole.”

And for putts that are (or would be) off-center hits of the pin…

“In Mase’s testing, he chose a pace where the ball was rolling 4 1⁄2 feet beyond the hole. (Remember that at 2 1⁄2 feet by the hole, 100 percent of the putts were made whether the flagstick was in or out.)”
“In total, the make percentage with the flagstick out was 90 percent. The average with a flagstick in was 45 percent, as high as 61 percent with the fiberglass pin and as low as 36 percent with the dual-diameter pin. In general then, a putt that would have struck the flagstick off-center is twice as likely to go in with the flagstick out as it is with the flagstick in.”

Maybe the big difference is the focus on the 4 1/2 feet past putting speed here, vs. MyGolfSpy’s test which shows 3, 6, and 9 feet. But the most direct comparison and glaring difference in these tests I see now is at the 3 foot past distance… MyGolfSpy’s results show the pin in still has better make percentage at 3 foot past. While GolfDigest/Tom Mase shows 100% are made at 2 1/2 feet past (pin in or out), but taking the pin out does much better at 4 1/2 feet past. There’s no way there is a flipping point between 3 feet and 4 1/2 feet past where it goes from pin in is better to pin out is better. So the tests are just different some other unknown way.

It makes me want to test myself, lol.

Davis Chuck

Saw this recently – not sure I agree. But a good alternative view.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time?utm_brand=gd&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&mbid=social_facebook&utm_social-type=owned&fbclid=IwAR2bJYIBvCN6IT6erNixqPpWhwvYMNp5rwhjHJCT2RvD4U6EEq6mgCaaYOw

Ben S

So May 2019 golf Digest says the exact opposite of these results. Saying it is way more detrimental to leave it in. Odd. Two scientific tests getting different results means bull shit. With science it needs to be repeatable in order to be proven. So I’d say the ball is skip in the air on this topic. I thought it was settled but apparently not.

Golf Digest also does a club test every year that is complete garbage! Almost every name brand club is ‘Gold’. So I don’t put a lot of stock in their articles…

Vince L

Comments area all over the place on this so it appears there is actually no real world consensus by golfers, matters little what putting machine results show. Me? Pin out, I want no distractions.

Sincerely,

The Best Putter In The World

ParHunter

This study comes to a different result. On breaking putts that hit the hole off centre the putt is more likely to go in with the pin out.
https://apple.news/AwxF3u155Pcy4bC3ZvGpBRg

Roller

2 words. TARGET FIXATION. How many times do we not aim at the hole! If you have a breaker leaving the flagstick in can draw your eye towards the stick or give you “target fixation”. How many times do you see players of any level remove debris from the green that is not in the line of the ball? The reason is target fixation. If you generally hit it hard leave the pin in. If long distance leave the pin in. A beaker on generally flat surface pull-it. Windy day with a bending or moving flagstick, pull-it. simple straight in put, pull-it! I don’t think there is one best way as there are too many variables.
Best way to speed up play is less practice swings and analyzing of the green. Really look at the pros and their putting practice strokes, the club angle and head are not even on the plane or position of which they will hit the ball. The pros drag their feet to find their “happy place” to calm their nerves, they don’t need all that time to practice, check their green books, walk it off, get their caddy involved, etc., etc. Us amateurs are slow because we are looking for balls and have high swing counts.

Chris

Thank’s for an awesome test, one thing I was thinking about was what the stimp in the test was? I guess that a put with the speed of 9 feet past will have a different speed level with the hole on a green with seven on the stimp than on one with 12, and derefore probably have a different outcome.

golfinnut

I’ll be interested to see what the statistics are next year. Has it really cut down on the time it takes to play a hole? Did it really make the game faster?
I, myself, don’t think it will. I mean, what, cuts off 30 seconds a hole … 540 seconds … 9 minutes per round? (I wasn’t a math wiz, so someone correct me if I’m wrong) I don’t foresee it helping much in terms of speeding up play, the whole reason for the rule change. Especially if there are players that want it in & some that want it out.
Just my .02

Art

Uh, 9 minutes a round would be a frickin’ HUGE benefit. Why would you downplay that?? This is EXACTLY how you speed up pace of play without impacting enjoyment of the round–do a bunch of simple things during the course of a round, all of which add up to significant time saved.

Rocky

For pros not since they already tend the pin on every putt but for Amateurs it will be a different story since now the pin will be going in and out depending on who is putting the old rule you extracted the pin once everybody was on and put it back in after the last put, not withstanding the fact that replacing the pin in and out 2 to 3 times per group vice 1 increases the likelyhood of damaging the hole

Greenberg Joseph

Need an equivalent to “Soft is slow.” Maybe: “Don’t pull out.” “Leave it in.”
“Pin in”
Great service to golf, MGS. Cheers

larrybud

it’s going to INCREASE the time because half the guys want it in, and half want it out.

Tomcat

Speed up play by playing ready golf, less practice swings, waving faster players or groups through, and learning general golf etiquette. We all learned playing with pins out , so you are going to have some wanting it in or out in the same groups. That does not speed up play and I feel more comfortable with the pin out, as that’s what I have been doing for 40+ years. Great study, though.

Chris C.

The use of the Perfect Putter certainly helps to facilitate a test addressing the physics behind leaving the pin in. However, as noted by some prior posters, it is unable to account for how distracting it can be to putt while the pin and flag are blowing in the wind. Indeed, I have golfed on many occasions where the pins are bending so far so as the prevent a ball from entering the cup. You test has convinced me to leave the pin in on most, but not all, occasions.

painter33

Am I to understand that a “center strike” with the pin out means the center of the hole and the putting “machine” only made 35% from 6’? 35% made when the ball hits the center of the hole? Really? Most of us could do better than 35% I would venture in similar circumstances – a controlled distance, green speed, flat lies, etc. Maybe the machine should practice more.

Tony Covey

??‍♂️

Doesn’t read. Doesn’t let that get in the way of a good rant based that misunderstanding.

9-feet, as clearly explained in the test details, wasn’t the putting distance. 9′ is the distance the ball rolled past the hole when unimpeded by the flagstick or the hole itself.

Dave C

Ha, exactly. Painter made a broad stroke skim and missed there key points. Good job guessing Painter.

Bob Jones

Leaving the pin in gives you something positive to aim at and makes you a more accurate putter than aiming at something that isn’t there, in my experience. Forget what this pro says or doesn’t say. Try it for yourself and see. For medium-length putts, the pin gives you a better sense of how far away the hole is, too.

Dave B

For sure. As Pelz and others have pointed out, us amateurs miss medium and longer putts by larger margins on distance than line. I’m all for anything that helps me with depth perception

Only 4% of putts from 6 feet are ‘straight’. You’re almost never aiming at the hole.

If you’re aiming at the hole for a Target then your aiming at the wrong thing
And therefore you miss most of them or they go in by luck only.
There is virtually never a straight in putt that’s more than 6 feet. You need to
Be aiming left or right of the pin on a line you see, not the pin. Big mistake.
How many Pros leave it in? Maybe 2-3%. Must be a reason. Distraction of something you shouldn’t be looking at.

Bradley Smith

Congrats to MGS – Did any of you notice on the telecast this past weekend from Torrey Pines that Nick Faldo mentioned My Golf Spy by name and credited them with the research (and Dave Pelz from 30 years ago) that absolutely proves the best choice – LEAVE IT IN!!!!!!!!

Adrian

Why is no one mentioning just how hard it is to hit the flag stick in the first place? It is hard enough to hit the hole let alone the flag stick. By the time you are at a close enough distance to the hole that you could reliably hit the flag stick it will be mostly irrelevant to have the flag in because you shouldn’t be running 5 foot putts 9 feet past the hole! Most putts miss the hole completely until you are at a close enough distance to where it doesn’t matter for the most part. I think this is mostly to increase pace of play and will not make much of a difference especially to a tour Pro’s putting stats in the long run. Now being able to repair any imperfection on the putting surface…that is a much bigger deal in my opinion.

But both this test, and the one in GolfDigest, show a big difference at even 3 feet past the hole and 4.5 feet past the hole.

Mark in LOL

FWIW, I’ve had a chance to play several rounds in our senior’s league, with different guys each time. The consensus seems to be to leave the pin in, especially for long putts. When it gets closer and someone wants the pin out, it stays out because no-one asks for it to be put back in. All-in-all the whole thing is a non-issue.

Mark

You are correct sir!

Llewelyn james

Perhaps I’m a simpleton, but I had always assumed that the reason it was always in the rules to take the flag out was because not doing made the game easier and so was cheating. Dropping from knee height, cheating. Taking a 2 shot penalty and dropping your ball close to where a ball was lost, cheating. And so on. For that reason alone I always leave the flag in. I can’t think of any rule change that the PGA have made which clearly makes the game harder.

David

I rarely run a putt 6/9 foot past, most are 1/2 foot past. Showing 3/6/9 is OK, but why not show 1 and 2 foot past, that is a more relevant (at least for me) speed.

Erik J. Barzeski

Because at 1-2 feet by there’s no change. Every putt that would go in goes in.

Kevin R

This thread has been beaten to death but I want to add two things.
1) I am a 7 handicap and play on fast greens. Believe me, I see plenty of 6-9 foot putts past the hole especially if I don’t end up close to the flagstick. It shocks me that other golfers say they never see this. Try a forty foot downhill putt on a 12 stimp. You’ll see what I mean.
2) Did I miss the stimp of the green where this was tested? A ball rolling six feet past on an 11 stimp does not have the same energy as a ball rolling past six feet at an 8 stimp. In addition, the bounce off distance would change as well.

Burningbush

I understand the concept of specifying green speeds, but it is stated that from their testing that speed controls, not uphill or downhill left or right break, or even distance. I agree when you say a fast or slow green would impact the results. But imagine the force of hitting a putt on a fast green trying to get it 9 feet beyond the hole on a downhill putt, it’d be a tap and it would hit the pin with much less velocity, and velocity or speed is what is being tested. Then consider trying to smash a tap in uphill put on a slow green 9 feet beyond the hole. You’d have hit the fag or hole almost immediately after you struck the ball. Yet, the amount of energy you’d need to get a ball 9’ beyond the hole on a slow green is far more than a fast green. And if you think of it in the simple way of a tap in, say 6 inches, but aiming for 9 feet beyond…. you’d hit the flag before any friction and other variables would impact the ball speed. The speed of the green would impact how hard or soft it takes to aim 9 feet long. In essence, the a higher green speed would decrease the speed of impact, and you simply don’t need the same speed on a fast green, so you’d probably see even better results.

Basically I understand your point. But I gotta say I like the simplicity of the way this was written. Because the speed of the green is not the only variable here. What about if the pin is moist? Cohesion to from the moisture of the green and the ball impacting the pin would impact the results too. The ball used would also impact the outcome. What about if you have a more forgiving putter on off center hits?

I agree that many variables are left out, but would you like to see all the data from every different variable that could impact a putt? Would you know how to interpret all the information if all of that was provided? That would be a lot of information that very few people could take something away from. This gave a simply put outcome. All because they simplified the experiment to speed based. Taking the nearly infinite amount of variables out of it so that you can take the information as you would like to, but you at least understand results this way.

I understand what you’re saying, but green speed is largely inconsequential with respect to the final result.

Regardless of the stimp value, it’s the speed that matters. We didn’t measure the actual speed itself, but let say, for the sake of example only, that once a ball reaches the hole, it must be traveling at a speed below 2 MPH to fall in (again…totally arbitrary speed number). It doesn’t matter if the stip value of the green is 8 or 15, the speed window for a putt to be made is the same. Doesn’t matter how much energy it took to get it there, only the speed at which it arrives matters.

Cup don’t care about the grass around it, only how fast the ball is moving when it gets there.

It’s not largely inconsequential – it’s a measure of the speed the ball is traveling at the hole.

If you guys missed 65% of the putts at 6′ by speed with center strikes? Your green was probably ~9 stimp and was definitely below 10.

Speed of ball, at the hole, that travels past hole 9′ on 9-stimp is greater than speed of ball that travels 9′ past hole on 12-stimp. Given the results i’d guess pin in is still the way to go either way, but ‘at the hole’ ball speed is not the same for varying green speeds. Not sure, but wouldn’t there (roughly) be a %25 difference in speed?

Nocklaus

I just wonder how a putt that would pass the hole by 3 feet can end up 11 to 31 feet away…?

Robert Peed

Double quotes represent inches, not feet. Feet are represented by single quote marks.

Incredible response to an awesome question

GolfGearDirect

The flags really changes the entire game. You must be comfortable playing both, pin in and pin out. Otherwise you might face a lot of problems in your games.

It’s great to see your flagstick testing results and perhaps now golfers will wake up and smell the coffee.
When the new rules were announced my first thought on the flagstick rule was … It’s supposed to speed up play but it will also allow someone with a a slick downhill 5 foot sliding putt to use it to make that putt.
I find it hilarious, and typical, that the USGA didn’t fully comprehend the advantage it would give players who left it in ALL the time. They just figured people would use it from long distance to save time and pull it for shorter putts.
I am all in on leaving it in whenever possible. It really helps my distance control on long putts and allows me better focus on short ones. But I will not be that guy who asks for it to be put back in for a 3 footer when a partner has already pulled it.
And, Yes it feels like cheating sometimes, but I’m getting over it really quick.

Dave S

Great test as usual MGS… not at all surprised by the results either.

The one thing that this type of test can’t replicate though is the mental/psychological effect leaving the pin in has on the person putting. I’ve heard some people say that the pin sticking out of the hole is distracting to their eye when putting, and I’ve also heard the opposite, that leaving it in helps them line up the putt and then gives them a smaller target to aim at.

No clue, of course, whether these issues are have real or just perceived effect on their actual make %, but it would be cool to know. That said, if I had to guess, I’d bet that those who think the pin is distracting would still make more putts with it in than out, contrary to their preconceived notions.

Steve S

It’s hard for me to believe all the negative comments about this rule. Besides me, only one other person has pointed out that this is NOT a NEW rule! It is a reinstatement of an OLD rule that was at least 60 years old when removed in the 1960’s. It has some great advantages for amateurs on down hill, fast putts. Rather than banging into the hole and running 5 foot by, the pin will absorb enough energy to give you a shorter putt. The physics are indisputable. Argue all you want, it works.

Big Bill

To each their own I don’t have to worry about it since I couldn’t putt straight if my life depended on it??️

Doug

Great research guys…thank you! One pace of play item that hasn’t been mentioned is now for guys using rangefinders it will be a time saver because they can get their readings on flags that are left in instead of standing around waiting for the group in front to replace the flag in order to get a true reading.

You get the reading after they put the flag in and before they are clear of the green. 0 time saver.

Bob

I TOTALLY disagree. Being able to use your rangefinder at any time is a big timesaver. I’m usually the one in our group that gets a reading and it’s annoying to be trying to get a distance off a player on the green you HOPE is close to the hole. I LOVE that we can get a reading at any time, make a club decision and the first guy in our group can go thru his pre-shot routine and be ready to pull the trigger as soon as the last guy is out of harm’s way.

Speeding up play with the time to “scope” the flag is just an ancillary benefit. The main one is just not having to mess with the flag. There is one guy I occasionally play with and I played with him a couple of weeks ago. I can NOT tell what a pain in the a$$ he was because of insisting on pulling the flag so he could miss an empty hole with his first PUTT. He was almost as annoying as the old Sergio waggle. LOL I think I’m going to busy the next time he asks me to play. Don’t be that quirky, PITA in your group.

Tom

Thanks again for such an unbiased take on what is and is not real in the golfing world . As a matter of interest why was the minimum distance past set at three feet when the “ accepted “ distance past for best speed is around the two feet or less ? Would it have made any difference ? I suspect the results would have been even more favourable for leaving the pin in .
Cheers .

Ian

Not sure who’s running it past 6′ and 9′ so the only part that seems crucial to me is off-centre hits at 3′ roll out (unless it’s a steep downhill putt).

85% in but with a 31” leave or 40% in with a 15” leave.

Then it’s a case of how confident are you from two and half feet against just over a foot? If the longer leave is no problem leave the flag in. If it’s going to be an issue take the flag out.

From what I’ve seen and how we’re playing it anything inside of say 10 feet take it out, anything outside 10 feet leave it in but from this it could be beneficial on a tricky downhiller.

I would’ve liked to have seen the numbers at 1′ past to see if it makes any difference at all.

DaveT

“85% in but with a 31” leave or 40% in with a 15” leave. Then it’s a case of how confident are you from two and half feet against just over a foot? If the longer leave is no problem leave the flag in. If it’s going to be an issue take the flag out.”

I have to disagree. Even if you’re pretty bad from two and a half feet, it still pays to leave it in. Let me give a worst-case example (or at least a pretty bad case) of “issue”.
* At just over a foot, you always make.
* At two and a half feet, you only make half the time; the other half you two-putt.
That’s a pretty stark difference, right? Let’s see how that works out statistically.

FLAG IN:
85% 1-putt, 7.5% 2-putt, 7.5% 3-putt.
Expected value = 1.225 putts.

FLAG OUT:
40% 1-putt, 60% 2-putt
Expected value = 1.6 putts.

That’s a pretty strong argument for leaving it in, even if you’re very poor from two and a half feet.

Bill

Like many others have already commented Dave Pelz tested and proved this a long time ago. Glad that MGS received the same results and conclusions Dave did many years ago. There is no doubt that leaving the pin in speeds up play (in my opinion). I thought that there may be a small advantage to leaving the pin in. But after seeing MGS’s data and the statistical significance of leaving the pin in. I think when the season starts i’ll leave the pin in and drill my putts. No need for all that pesky break. :)

Alex

Thanks for the article MGS !

Now, do you think this is gonna change the stats on the PGA tour ? Are we gonna see lower scores and new course records or even more rounds of 59s ?

TR1PTIK

I don’t see how it couldn’t quite honestly. No doubt the test isn’t the best comparison to what’s experienced out on the course by golfers, but data don’t lie. Guys leaving the flag in have a better make % than those who don’t.

The USGA is going to have a really hard time balancing their priorities between protecting par and nailing course setup for the U.S. Open now.

Blake

Feb.2019 Golf magazine page 120 gives you all the stats. you’ll ever need! They concur; Leave It In!
Want to speed up the game?, let the Pro’s use laser golf rangefinders!

Mudfeets

If the new rule is meant only to speed up play, I have concerns with that irregardless if pin in/out aids anyone in making or missing putt. The real issue with slow play is that we have too many (expletive deleted), I mean amateurs, who don’t practice and come out every weekend thinking they are (Insert Pro Name Here). They play from the back tees, are on their fourth or fifth shot before even getting on the green and stop to chatter endlessly about how they could have made that last shot better just if… So, at that point, making a 2, 3 or 4 putt really doesn’t matter. For god’s sake just shut up and putt or do what the Scottish caddie told that guy, “Laddie, you should take two weeks off and then quit the game entirely”.

Walter

So true. I hate playing with players like that. I played with one guy last year who would use his laser to check the distance to the pin from just off the green, ha ha. Then of course he’d miss the putt – every time, annoying.

10shot

Remember, without them you don’t have a golf course. Those types of player as you call them are the backbone of sales, greens fee, driving range etc.. Best would be to you to join a semi/private club with handicap restrictions.

@10SHOT – Exactly. Slow players in golf are not analogous to that annoying guy playing pick-up bball at at a local playground court that shoots way too much b/c he thinks he’s MJ (but wouldn’t make the JV high school team). They actually pay a fee to be annoying. And unfortunately for all us other non-slow players, those fees help keep the local muni or neighborhood course in business so we can enjoy the game as well.

There’s really no way to avoid that type of slow play (where the person either oblivious or an a**); it’s just something you have to deal with. I think the USGA is trying to help speed up the things they actually CAN influence. Though the affect of this rule on slow play is TBD and probably marginal. Every player in the group has to be on the same page with keeping it in or it could actually end up taking MORE time (with putting it back in then pulling it out for different players’ preferences).

Rob

Irregardless is not a word.

Frederick Rindge

Unfortunately, “irregardless” is a word now because it was used so much that the dictionary folks finally had to let it in…

fozcycle

Well done MGS. When I started playing in 1959, the rule was no penalty so we left it in. Now when I ask to leave the flagstick in, I get criticisms. I am the only one in my groups to leave it in. I will persevere!

Spitfisher

In our group I was always the one that often would leave the pin in from off the green – uphill or down hill putt. A longer putt where most would just pull it out I would often have it tended. The Pin to me gave me additional information, how the hole was cut as well as an alignment aid….I like the new rule.

ComeOnSense

I’m not sure if new rule will speed up play, the 4some will need to agree on leave pin in or not from the start, and how about when you play with strangers?
I’m afraid this scenario could happen that will slow play even more:
The 4 some are on the green putting, the 1st guy to putt says ” take it out” ,he missed the putt past the hole by 5ft. The 2nd guy says “put it in”, he missed by 3ft.The 3rd guy says “take that s… out” and missed by 2.5 feet, he is close but can’t finish the putt because we playing for money plus he’s outside the learher. The 4th guy says ” put it back in” and
his putt comes up way short, so he’s still away.So he says ” you know what, let me try with the pin out this time”, so we put it back in.Then the next guys in the group decide to do the same with some putts with pin in and out randomly. Imagine how this plays out playing with strangers. It can get ugly.
But thank you for the test, I’ll see if we agree in my regular 4some to leave in and see how it goes.

Richard

I already see this happen all the time… In my regular foursome we always leave the pin in to speed up play, but in matches against other clubs, the pin goes out and in and out and back in again to satisfy everyone’s preferences. I’ve decided to just putt with the pin in its current state (in or out).

TonyG

I predict this will be the fastest rule reversal in history. Does not save time when golfer A want the flag out, then B wants it in, then C wants it out again. Also, only a matter of time until a company releases a flag stick that absorbs even more energy, increasing the advantage.

The USGA official that suggested this change should go jump in a lake, I mean hazard, no penalty zone.

Tony, the data supports leaving the flag in, uphill or down hill, 6 fort putt or 30 foot…fewer strokes period.

I hope leaving the pin in over time doesn’t drive amatuers and hacks to use the pin to retrieve thieir made putt, resulting in damage to the cup it self so the pin leans to one side. I believe that to be the only downside of the rule

Yeap, that’s what I said, this new rule could slow play even more , imagine whats going to be like playing with strangers.It could be a 18 holes “leave in for me” ” no ,leave out” extravaganza.

Short-term in may be a problem, but I think long-term most golfers will get used to it and will want to leave it in a majority of the time. Especially for that first, long, lag putt.

Actually, the biggest argument for taking the pin out is that it is harder to get the ball out of hole with the pin in!

Mike

It would be nice to see a study to see if lag putting improves with the flag in. The flag has the potential to give the golfer a better visual reference for the distance of the put. A couple of years ago I played a late fall round of golf and the flags were removed from the greens. From 50 yards and in my pitching was awful. Even though I was getting the distance with GPS the missing flag was throwing my depth perception off.

joro

To me it is simple, it is easier to Putt at an object, the Flagpole, rather than a hole in the ground. Why do he Putt at a tee, or a glass on the carpet, because it is easier to visualize a strike against something rather then at nothing. To me it is simple.

DB

Agreed. This is something that would be difficult to test for, but it seems intuitive that most people would have better perception of both distance and slope with the flagstick still in. I’m quite happy about this new rule change.

Exactly, I agree.

Well stated

Michael Weill

From greater than 10′ I leave the flag in. From inside I take it out. The whole looks a lot bigger with the flag out. My only putting issue is leaving the ball short on slow greens. On fast greens I get it there.

I certainly don’t disagree with the MGS test results or those of Dave Pelz (read his book several years ago – very good), but I don’t see myself leaving the pin in on every single putt unless that’s what the rest of my group is doing. This just feels like cheating and I think the USGA got this one wrong.

If they’re going to allow the flag stick to be used in this manner then they should undo the anchor ban, roll back the groove rule (though that doesn’t seem to matter much with current wedge and ball technology), and cease and desist on the whole distance issue.

Just my two cents.

Mike Mathis

I calculate your response at 3 cents worth ? and agree wholeheartedly.

I understand your feelings, but there is I believe 1 flaw in your argument. Under old rules, why was it OK to leave the pin in when putting from just off the green but not OK when putting from on the green? That makes the old rule seem arbitrary, which I think may have been a factor in the change.

Because short shots from off the green are considered a “chip” regardless of what club you use. Same is true for strokes taken on the green – it doesn’t matter what club, if it’s on the green it’s a putt.

But that’s my point TRIP, why should it matter what you call it or which club you use? I think one could logically make the argument that having the pin in for chip shots is a bigger advantage than with putts. Which leads to my conclusion that forcing the removal of the pin just because the ball is on the green is arbitrary.

I get what you’re saying and I’ll admit that you do raise a good point. But, I think the added difficulty of a chip or even a putt from off the green where the lie is less predictable mitigates the flag being left in.

Putting from on the green is hands down the easiest part of golf and requires the least amount of talent or athletic ability to perform. Why make this aspect of the game easier and bemoan technological improvements that have made the long game easier for most amateurs?

I’m not a rules snob or the type of person to belittle anyone who wants to leave the pin in. I already play with guys that do that and I’ve done it during solo rounds for pace of play or because the putt was within tap-in distance, but the idea of playing an entire round with the pin in on every putt just bothers me. I don’t like the aesthetics.

To each their own though. I still think the USGA got this wrong. This rule along with a couple other new ones go against the reasoning behind many other changes they’ve imposed over the years. So why not just roll some of those back as well and let everyone play the game the way they want to?

Since I contradicted myself a bit in my last reply let me clarify by saying that I leave the pin in during solo rounds simply has to do with my own schedule – not because I was slowing down anyone behind me and needed to speed up.

When we’re talking about 4 guys at the muni or Tour Pros who are going to take a significant amount of time trying to get the read on their putts, pulling the pin does very little to effect pace of play.

Josh

I was just doing some reading, and the original R&A rule added one penalty stroke for any shot within 20 yards without the flagstick being removed… in stroke play only, which is also arbitrary. lol pretty interesting. https://www.usga.org/rules-hub/rules-modernization/text/a-brief-history-1744-to-present.html

Graeme

I’m showing my age (65) but when I was a boy the rules allowed the pin to be left in when you were on the green – so nothing new. It’s all about speeding up the game and as amateurs we can see great time savings on each green using this rule. There should be very few balls that bounce back/out assuming the pin is straight and the ball speed is correct. In some cases the pin will be a benefit if a putt is hit too hard.

Alan

Do the rules allow the flagstick to be leaned backwards or must the pin be centred? Would have to re-write the flagstick rules.

Daniel Brent

The rules allow the pin to be forward, back, leaning sideways, BUT you cannot set the pin to lean in a certain direction, only adjust the pin the be centered

BenSeattle

A few observations:

Seriously, how often do you hit a putt that would travel 6 to 9 FEET past the hole? If that’s not a worry then having the stick in provides no advantage: both “flag in” and “flag out” putts will drop when hit with correct speed.

Using a “Perfect Putter” tool insures consistency but it also eliminates the “human factor” and I don’t think that can be overlooked. To me, the cup simply LOOKS BIGGER when the stick is out. Psychologically, that’s huge.

Finally, I can’t tell you how many of my nicely-struck chips from just off the green have failed to drop because the combination of speed and a slight off-center grazing of the flagstick that cause the shot to just bounce away. I often feel that if the pin had been pulled, many if not most of these chips would have gone in. Gravity would have had a “better chance” to work but the middle-of-the-hole flagstick wouldn’t let this happen.

A.j.

I tend to agree with this I hardly ever see any putts that go 6-9 feet past the hole, also wonder how much break there were on these putts and how fast the greens were? The other factor in the UK we often play in windy conditions with the flag stick moving around, in my mind at least that reduces the chances of a putt dropping with the pin in. I like the idea I can putt form 60 feet away with the pin in while others move trolleys, rake bunkers etc, but struggle with the concept of everyone putting out with the pin left in. Maybe in a years time it will be unusual to see the pin ever taken out, but I doubt it.

Brenton

But on the flip side, how many of those horse shoe, ball goes below the hole putts would have dropped because of the flag compared to coming out EVERY time. It can be looked at both ways. You can stick with tradition, but if I have a LOW COR flag, it is staying in for me.

Craftygolfjk

I agree BenSeattle, the test in itself seemed weird to me. I’m never trying to hit a putt 3 ft past and if it’s 6-9 foot past would be ridiculous. To me so far this year it has only been awkward and slower on the greens. Not good for the game, some kind of carbon fiber flagstick should be available soon.

Left_Kangaroo

The cup may look bigger to you when you can see the entire cup from where you are putting. What about when you can’t see the cup at all?

As for, “how often do you hit a putt 6-9 feet past the hole”, have you played golf with other people before? Poor golfers do this all the time! haha maybe you don’t. I know I’ve gotten lucky a few times on long putts where it hits the back of the cup traveling much too fast and it pops up and goes in.

I’m also betting that you remember the times the pin pops the ball out on a chip more than the amount of lip-outs when the flag is pulled. The whole memory fallacy deal. Anyways.

LABillyboy

Dave Pelz did a similar study over a longer period of time with similar results. I’ve now played several rounds with the new rule and it definitely speeds up play, ONCE everyone agrees to leave it in. Glad to see more science backing it up.

Kenny B

I don’t think the results were what the USGA wanted to hear. They said there was little difference, but they obviously didn’t take the time over the last year and half to run a similar test.

Dave Pelz and others have done the research on this prior to the decision. It was well known leaving the stick in is a slight advantage. It was felt the big speed of play improvement was well worth the potential to improve scores.

GMac

70 footer left the flagstick in cause it shouldn’t matter at that distance. Wouldn’t you know but couple feet out it was sure to go In just left of center when a gust of wind hit the flag. Previous group hadn’t put the flagstick all the way down so that little breeze tilted the flagstick and kicked my ball out. Next day played as twosome with no group in front and never pulled the pin. One fast round. Small target small miss.

Nate Watkins

Excellent testing and analysis. Thank you for the info. I already shared it with my golf group to get everyone on board.

I did have one question about the speed of the greens you tested on. It seems that the data would still be the same but for my own curiosity I was wondering how fast the ball was rolling when ending 6’ past the hole. Seems that on slower greens the 9’ data would be more relevant for a 6’ past putt and vice versa on faster greens.

chrisk

i’ve been playing for over 35 years now, and the last 19 years at what I’d call a “big” golf course (large greens with all sorts of undulations all over it). I’ve always putted with the pin out because that’s the rules, but i’ve also taken to removing the pin on chips. It’s not like i’m some sort of chip-shot artist, but i’ve had so many balls strike the pin and come out (that were what I considered a good speed) that i’ve grown to feel like the pin is a block on the hole.

Here’s my theory on what’s happening: mygolfspy’s test looked to me like it was dealing with a lot of very straight putts. Where i play, there’s no such thing except on the practice greens. I wonder how the test would hold up if some sort of break were taken into account. I think anything hitting the pin dead-center would go in, but a ball breaking one way or the other as it hit the pin slightly off-center might show different results. Just food for thought.

Excellent point. The photos I’ve seen of Pelz’s tests show his putts also on a straight line without break. I think there are many critical variables, inckuding visual stimuli, that aren’t being taken into account in these tests.

TopPakRat

There are other advantages as well. Just think of the wear a green deals with especially around the cup. That is greatly eliminated with keeping the flag in the cup. If you think on a typical day that flag is pulled and replaced 30 plus times the potential damage around the cup is greatly increased. Also the number of spike marks are greatly reduced around the cup. It’s a no brainer. Leave the flag in the cup.

Tom G.

Flag stick in or out, is this each individuals choice or a group decision? With flag in you missed 1st putt, cam the flag be pulled for 2nd or 3rd attempt or remain in until putted out? Questions I believe need to be addressed.

majorduffer

Dave Pelz conducted a similar test many years ago whether to leave flag in when you are chipping. The stats showed 65% more makes with flag in versus out. When the pros start seeing the above stats and see the difference (Bryson is a genius) they will start leaving it in.
Next someone will shoot a 56 with the flag in and the USGA will roll its eyeballs and say oops. They will then in they medieval ways revoke this new rule. I think it is a great rule in how much it speeds up the game. We played the other day and leaving the flag in saved us a good 15 minutes. Unfortunately, just like the long putter, the USGA dinosaurs will soon take it away.

Thomas

My group has been ahead of its time. We have been leaving the stock in for at least 1o yrs. it was ur call
Breaking the old rule.

Why would you only test 3 feet past the hole or more. I seldom hit a putt that hard depending on who you as 6 inches to 18 inches or so is a good distance past the hole. Would it make a difference on these distances. I think most food players have always felt the flagstick will only help a bad shot and 3,6 and nine feet past on a putt is certainly not a good putt…Just curious..ty

jake

any put that would have only gone 6 inches past the hole will go in if it hits the hole.

Because inside of 3′ makes no difference. The ball isn’t going fast enough to be kicked out by the flagstick, and it’s going slow enough it can fall in the sides of the cup.

Lorne Babenek

Wonder if the pin will act as a better aiming point and lead to more accurate putting and makes? Similar to the confidence a backboard may provide. Maybe a future test?

Mark In LOL

Good point. Especially for long, lag putts, does the golfer tend to get closer with pin in or out?

Deron Sizemoe

Should help with speed control. I talked to a couple guys on tour who putt with something behind the hole (like a water bottle) as they say it helps with depth perception and thus helps their speed on lag putting practice. I think the flag in should definitely assist on speed of those lag putts.

Roberto

Great test of my favorite new rule. I have been playing stick in during solo practice rounds for years. I have always prefer flag in on the long ones over some numb nutz who doesn’t know how to tend a pin. Now, I think I’ll start leaving it in most of the time.

Another advantage for me is aiming the putt. It is much easier for me to use the flagstick vs the hole for taking dead aim.

George Johnson

if they want to leave the flag stick in ,why make the rule as to not mark the balls on the green ,like sty me,seems they change the rules to make it easy for the pros,sometime i think these players are just to spoiled

Steve Dobson

The best reason to leave the pin in is that it speeds up play. When we want to play an extra 9 and time is short we leave it in – really makes a difference.

Love this kind of stuff, has got me thinking about other factors than speed. Just some thoughts: would the pin in help with distance perception and thus control? Would it draw too much attention to the pin, away from your line, on a breaking putt? If I miss a putt that would go past the hole I’ve got a rough idea of where that’s going to end up and get to see it down the line as it goes past the hole, a glancing blow might head off at an unusual angle (down a drop off?), as I get closer to the hole my control of it going past should increase so it matters less, how many of my missed putts per round are hitting the hole? (And not short…)

Anecdotally I think most of my chips (once on the deck) or off the green putts that have hit the pin have not gone in (possibly going 9’ long speed then).

More brain power needed.

HDTVMAN

Great test and surprising results. When this crazy winter ends I plan to putt with the flag-stick in.

Don

The difference between keeping the pin in or not is pretty significant. Do you think the USGA will change their minds on this sooner than later? I get the feeling they didn’t quite do their due diligence.

It looks like the new rules will help speed up play. I like the option for local rules for the out of bounds and lost ball at less competitive levels of play.

And I’m glad the double hit rule is gone! That will save me about 3 or 4 strokes a year 8=) Usually, the effect of the 2nd hit is a penalty in and of itself.

I suppose someone will get very creative with this rule at some point and it will need to be addressed. I can see trick shots using a pop up and then baseball type swing or something.

Anyway, great research on the pin in/out debate!

Kris

Double hits are still illegal if done on purpose sadly.

Tradition is a funny thing. Depends open your perspective, history and age. If you look at old film of the US Open pre-1960 lots of folks putted with the pin in. Not sure when the USGA changed the rule or if it was never a rule until they added it.

Yours is the at least the third time(counting Pelz) someone has tested the pin in vs out.

Brad Smith

In all the TV discussion of this, I haven’t heard any announcer or commenting pro reference the work of Dave Pelz 30-35 years ago. They always seem to discuss this as though it was highly questionable which was best. Pelz ran his test almost exactly as MGS did except back then, the only shots where the player had the choice of in or out was when the ball was off the green. He and MGS used the same test instrument – a ramped ball roller which allowed both direction and speed at the hole to be repetitively controlled. MGS agreed with his conclusion…leave it IN! Why hadn’t the TV guys ever mentioned this?

Thomas Brokl

I think it will speed up play. My wife and I often play as a twosome and waste time taking the pin out, carrying it to a neutral portion of the green, then putting to both hole out. Then one person volunteers to go bend over to retrieve the flagstick & put it back into the hole, while the other heads off to the next tee. Leaving the flagstick in 18 times per round will add up to faster times for the round. (AND LOWER SCORES)

Gerry T

I will keep the flagstick in. I know how easy it is to misjudge ballspeed and slope so this new rule will give me the confidence to eliminate 3 putts!

MrHogan

Nothing new or surprising here. Same study was done by Dave Pelz many years ago and he too recommended the flag stick left in.

Kevin

This totally agrees with Dave Pelz research from years ago. My friend and I were talking about this and he said he was going to leave the flagstick in for any long putt. I said I thought leaving it in for short putts would be advantageous because you could confidently take the break out of the short putts with a little more speed. So I stepped up to show him a 3-foot putt which I struck very solidly hitting the pole dead center and it bounced out. Now I’m traumatized….LOL

Bill G

Comprehensive and definitive, nice job MGS.

Scott Johnson

I practice on course with pin in for years .I think you also focus better with pin in.something better to aim at. Although with some players leaving it out& some in,could slow down play.

Jason W

Fully agree with this comment! I reckon leaving the flag stick in will provide a better target for most golfers which just adds to the justification for it. Also, will be interesting if, after this publication of results, more of the Pros leave it in in upcoming events.

Scott

Thanks for this analysis but how statistically significant are results from “20 putts per situation?” Difficult to extrapolate from such a miniscule sample size even though it looks promising. We needs 1000s of rolls per situation! Thanks again and keep up the good work.

JasonA

Actually to make a decision we only need “statistical significance”. Sometimes that significance can be seen 10’s of samples.

While that stats rule of thumb “more is better” is not contradicted per se, the **interpretation** that we need 100’s / 1000’s of samples to make a decision is not correct.

Brian

There is one other advantage for older and myopic golfers–the flag stick helps with depth perception and therefore the SPEED of putts. This would be difficult to objectively test but is true.

Marty

Our club recently switched to the more flexible flag sticks. Coincidence? Don’t think so! Also, Psul Azinger gave a lesson about putting to something above ground is easier to judge distance vs. a hole in the ground. If you come up short more times than not, leave the pin in.

brandon

Marty.. if you come up short hit the putt harder… duh. then refer back to the flag in stats… putts that come up short, in my limited understanding, go in approximately 0% of the time… Perhaps Golfspy can run a test

Richard Thibault

The reason the putt is short with the flag in is because golfers are unsure how far the ball will roll past the hole if it doesn’t drop so they hit it lighter. But with the flag in you can hit it harder knowing it will not go as far if you hit a little hard and the results show that it will probably go in .

Known this since Dave Pelz ran the data back in the days too, he came to the same conclusion. Always leave it in.

The only situation where he suggested you take the pin out is if the pin is significantly leaning TOWARDS the golfer, if you putt that way the ball might get stuck and not fall in the hole. But with the new rule it counts as in so always leave the pin in.

Slogan should be, player faster, putt better

On downhill putts on fast greens, no-brainer!!! Other than straight uphill putts, w/ any type of side break, I feel I can be a bit more ‘high side’ w/ the putt. The hardest adjustment w/b w the folks you play with. There’s always some well-meaning soul that will get up to the green &, seeing everyone’s on the green, pull the flagstick & drop it 25ft away from the cup.

Jake

I’ll suffer through the well-meaning soul pulling the flag. But I will not suffer through the annoying soul asking to have it replaced for his 6′. Once it’s pulled, it stays pulled.

I wonder does keeping the pin in, have any effect on the avg golfer’s aim as well since it’s giving a different picture(a center point of the pin) than without the flagstick. Similar to the square on a backboard.

cksurfdude

Nice work .. thanks guys!! Now….. to disseminate this info to all golfers and get them on-board, so that we can realize the hoped-for benefit to pace of play…….

My concern is that often times I use the flagstick to tell us when the green has been cleared.
I’m not convinced that it will save time.

Once again, Bryson “Dr. Science” DeChambeau is right. It’s still gonna be weird at first, though

Blank stare….

Jetset

Love the objective data as always – it will take some getting used to but well done again MGS

Scott King

Number don’t seem to lie. I like the idea of out if outside around 10 feet. Most of those are gonna to be not running too fast by the hole if they are on line and should go in either way. That is what it would seem anyway.
What are the distances from the hole where yuh tested from?

Preston

I don’t think distance from hole matters… the speed at which the ball arrives at the hole is what matters

Edward

Distance doesn’t matter – only the speed the ball is traveling matters.

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