MGS Labs: Conforming vs. Non-Conforming Grooves
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MGS Labs: Conforming vs. Non-Conforming Grooves

MGS Labs: Conforming vs. Non-Conforming Grooves

Written By: Andrew Rice

Are the new grooves capable of producing as much spin as our old beloved square (and now non-conforming) grooves? Could the hoopla surrounding the 2010 groove rule have been much ado about nothing?

It’s certainly worth looking into.

We had two golf professionals test new conforming grooves against the older square grooves, and the results suggest that, from fairway lies, grooves actually don’t make a heck of a lot of difference!

legal-grooves-2

Test Objective and Conditions

Here is what was tested and how we went about it:

For this test our objective was to determine what, if any significant, difference exists between the current USGA legal C-C (condition of competition) grooves and the old (non-conforming) square grooves from fairway lies.

grooves-4

Our test conditions were as follows:

  • We used two almost brand new 56 degree clubs with near identical specs. The difference between the two was that one had C-C grooves and the other had square grooves.
  • Two golf professionals hit 15 shots each from 3 different distances with each club. Data from the best 12 shots (24 shots per distance) was used for the calculations.
  • The measured distances were 25, 50 and 75 yards and the objective was to carry the ball to that distance.
  • All shots were hit with premium golf balls except the shots hit from deep rough.
  • All shots were hit from a tight mat so as to limit outside factors interfering with friction between the face and the ball.
  • As a point of interest each tester also captured data on five 50 yard shots from the rough with each club.

The Results

squarecc-grooves-bnr

Observations & Analysis

There were no noticeable differences between the two types of groove and both testers reported not being able to tell the difference between the two clubs in how the ball reacted off the club face.

For the shots out the rough we hit from very poor lies in thick Bermuda and the golf ball was coming out and knuckle-balling through the air. You could clearly see the ball change direction in mid flight. I don’t believe there are any grooves out there that could significantly impact the flight of the ball from these types of lies.

grooves-5

I do believe that when tested in a strictly controlled laboratory type environment, and with a much larger sample size square grooves might show that they spin the ball marginally more than the current C-C grooves. However, our tests indicate that the difference might be so minute that not even golf professionals are able to identify a difference.

A side note to keep in mind is that in order to hit chip and pitch shots that end up consistently close to the hole we don’t need maximum spin, we just need enough spin.

Whatever grooves you’re currently using, as long as they’re clean and not worn down will be able to get the job done.

 

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Andrew Rice

Andrew Rice

Andrew Rice

Andrew Rice has been the Director of Instruction at the Westin Savannah Harbor. His teaching objective is to get his students to understand, and learn to better control the factors that influence the flight of their golf ball. He has been teaching golf for almost 25 years and uses cutting edge teaching technology to measure and help golfers of all abilities improve.

Andrew Rice

Andrew Rice

Andrew Rice

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Andrew Rice

Andrew Rice

Andrew Rice

Andrew Rice

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Andrew Rice





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      Matthew Kreider

      8 years ago

      I’ve noticed a big difference in the spin and check I am able to get on short game shots. It really hurt my game in competition. I don’t understand the USGA went after wedges and irons, but didn’t really regulate drivers all that quickly.

      Reply

      Young-Tae Lim

      8 years ago

      What kind of device did you use to measure spin? I am pretty skeptical about your data if you used radar based one, not the high speed cam.

      Reply

      Darryl Souness

      8 years ago

      Utter nonsense this “rule”. CHANGE. THE. BALL

      Reply

      Ryan Eagleton

      8 years ago

      “All shots were hit with premium golf balls except the shots hit from deep rough” = this test is pointless! Give your head a shake!

      Reply

      Jeff

      8 years ago

      Which grooves have the best lifespan?

      Deeper and square seem to better in the long term economy.

      No?

      Reply

      Gary Lewis

      8 years ago

      Thanks for the comparison. I really don’t miss the non-conforming grooves because many of them were so hard on golf balls. The spin on wedges like the Callaway X-Tour was incredible but they would damage the golf balls quickly and badly. I don’t think the latest conforming wedge can spin a ball like that but they have improved the spin in the last few years and the latest wedges are great.

      Reply

      Mark

      8 years ago

      Sorry Andrew, not drinking the Kool aid you are selling. Usually the Mygolfspy reviews are great. This one not so much. All of the comments about the larger grooves being able to channel dirt, grass and water better are spot on. The older grooves were also shaper. Anyone who still plays or remembers the original Mack Daddy or Nike Hi-Rev grooves knows how sharp those grooves were. The comments about excessive spin with the old grooves are also 100% correct. I play the old and new wedges all the time. There is no comparison from the rough or pitch shots. Where the wedges are the same is from clean lies. That was never a secret and testing the wedges from a mat would only confirm that. How about a review from different kinds of grasses and rough lengths that are commonly found. That would have been a better comparison

      Uinta Golf has a YouTube video called “Feeling Grooovy!” which shows the difference between 2009 old groove and 2010 new groove spin characteristics. Also, in a GW Toy Box Blog, Bob Vokey is speaking about the grooves. 50 yard shots from the rough have 3000 RPM less spin in their testing. Vokey is quoted “Wishfully I’d say we got about 1500 (rpm) back, but its’ probably more like 1200”. I think all of us including the Pro’s would notice a 3000 (rpm) loss. So I will trust Bob Vokey and my own experience rather than this poorly designed and applied review.

      Reply

      frank

      8 years ago

      thank you Andrew
      How do you think both wedges would perform if the grooves were worn a bit?
      I wonder would the legal grooves perform as well as the illegal after 3/4 months.

      Reply

      roverrick

      8 years ago

      First ask yourself the purpose of the rule. Was it not “to place a premium on hitting the fairway” and to get rid of the “bomb and gouge” mentality? To force the pros to throttle it back some and stop the increase in distance off the tee? How well has this worked out?

      Look at the top 10 in Driving Distance on the PGA Tour, at least 8 won last year that I remember and I didn’t even look it up. Conversely, of the Top 10 in Driving Accuracy I don’t recall any of those guys winning this year. (many in the last several years) I don’t recall Bubba or Dustin or Rickie or Rory discussing how they have throttled it back since 2010 and it has improved their game.This only matters when you short side yourself in the rough and have a bad lie.

      Of course the pros practice this and simply learned how to use the equipment. Some of us amateurs have learned to at least try to avoid this. It was a stupid rule, but one of many.

      As for this test, the manufacturers have had 6-7 years to research this, and most have come out with 5 or more improvements since then. There is not much doubt in my mind that as far as these 5th variations are concerned they are probably better.

      You said, “The measured distances were 25, 50 and 75 yards and the objective was to carry the ball to that distance.” What? Why is this the objective? The issue is not carry but stopping power.

      “All shots were hit with premium golf balls except the shots hit from deep rough.” Why change balls for this. Once again, it is all about spin and out of the rough is where it makes the most difference.

      “All shots were hit from a tight mat so as to limit outside factors interfering with friction between the face and the ball.” Now, this totally skewed the test. The larger grooves were supposed to channel water away from between the face and the ball. You eliminated the chance of that happening.

      “As a point of interest each tester also captured data on five 50 yard shots from the rough with each club.” But by your admission, it was with different balls. Also, I would point out that the Bermuda is dormant in this picture. It has less water in the blades to help minimize the effect of water freezing in the blades. The larger grooves are there to remove water that is not there in the grass you were hitting out of.

      In Summary.
      Are the 5th or 6th generation C-C wedges as good or better than old grooves? The grooves are probably not, but that does not mean that the wedges, when considering head design and face design and shaft are not better. The OEM’s have certainly made a fortune off this ruling when you consider that 6 iron and below had to have a groove change, in many brands.

      Reply

      Drew

      8 years ago

      What was the rationale to limit your test to only professionals golfers? Wouldnt they know how to get the maximum performance from each type of groove to make the difference negligible? Would be interesting to compare their results to a mid handicapper.

      Reply

      Blade

      8 years ago

      Nothing new about the fact that you won’t see a difference from a clean lie in the fairway. Everyone knew that before the rule change. Grooves don’t affect spin with clean contact. The difference from a buried lie in the rough may not be as big of a difference than people thought though. It would have been good to see the difference in the rough with Bluegrass or something else in addition to Bermuda. I would expect a bigger difference in softer grass than that nasty Bermuda lie would expose. But you never know for sure until you try it.

      Reply

      Art

      8 years ago

      Blade, your comment “Everyone knew that…” is a good indicator of how little you know.

      Andrew, interesting observations, thanks.

      Reply

      Blade

      8 years ago

      Baloney. That fact was tested and proved years and years ago. If you didn’t know that, then sure, you’re not included in the term “everyone” which was only used as a figure of speech, obviously. Sorry that inference escaped you.

      Bob Pegram

      8 years ago

      The book, The Search for the Perfect Golf Swing proved it with tests decades ago. They tested grooved irons against specially made ungrooved irons that were otherwise the same. From a good lie there was no significant difference in spin. The tests were done by scientists if I remember correctly.

      Art

      8 years ago

      About 10 years ago, using a robot (that should make some people here happy) and a Trackman, a grooved wedge was found to produce spin rates 4% higher than a smooth wedge. Contact with the squared groove was indicated to affect spin.

      Blade

      8 years ago

      You would call 4% significant huh? 4% could fall within the statistical error of the test. So the test you refer to in fact showed no significant difference.

      Art

      8 years ago

      Yes I would consider a 4% change in spin rate significant. And I consider the modern experiment less flawed than the 1968 experiment, so there is an indication grooves may affect spin. No one is proposing any ground breaking change in physics here, just cause for further investigation. Breathe deep and back off the statistically significant ledge Blade, everything is going to be okay.

      Blade

      8 years ago

      Haha! Too funny! I guarantee the spin you get from shot to shot with the same exact club varies by more than 4%. But whatever trips your trigger.

      Setter02

      8 years ago

      Sorry, but anyone who has played the Cally X Forged MD’s will tell you the current crop of wedges aren’t even close to the stopping power those things had.

      Reply

      Mark

      8 years ago

      Exactly!!! Those original MD’s were sick. The Nike Hi-Rev were just as wicked. Both Ball killers. If you never played them or don’t remember – there is no comparison between those grooves and what is available today.

      Reply

      Jericho Das

      8 years ago

      I’m a decent ground loader an get the club through pretty good, usually about 1,000 rpm’s over per club ”swinging the mp-5’s and s5 wedges right now”..6 iron averages 7,200rpm. ..usually a half/3 quarter wedge guy ..went ahead and was taking full swings with my 51 degree and was getting 10,800 some big ones were 11,600 ..never tried full rips on the 56 or 62 ..I never tested my red sawmill vokey’s back when I had them but new out of the wrapper I’d have to throw them as far behind the pin as I could because of the back spin ..would sometimes get 40ft ..it was fun to watch but it was a crap shoot too especially a tucked pin near a false front.. .. absolutely all for the “conforming” groove rule.. ..I can go pin hunting..one hop an stop..can pull’em back a little if I need to..they don’t give my ball a flat spot every time I throw my wedge on it then have to clean strips of polyurethane out of my grooves..it sucks when you hit your number then walk up a find you have a 30ft putt.. ..ok about the whole conforming thing ..i have a handful of wins on the Mini tours but come on ..I stood near these two guys who were both in their mid 70’s who don’t move very quick and don’t shoot under 100 and was talking about having to get rid of their clubs and get conforming clubs..lol..I had to laugh to myself. ..pro’s and top am’s could swing a club ..a 30 capper will be far more inconsistent of puting a ball on the screws to really know any difference .. ..if you don’t play for a living just play whatever you want and go out an have a ball

      Reply

      Tony Feminis

      8 years ago

      Illegal? Do I get arrested if I use it?

      Reply

      Regan Johnston

      8 years ago

      By eye I didn’t notice much difference in spin. I noticed a higher initial launch angle with conforming over non conforming though.

      Reply

      Jono Maxwell

      8 years ago

      Did the ping i2 initially come out with a grove pattern that was deemed illegal

      Reply

      Regan Johnston

      8 years ago

      I’m not entirely sure the rules around that but there is a few stories. Like in 2010 when the old groove become illegal you could still use the Eye2 irons coz of some loop in the rules.. Mickelson put an old Eye2 lobwedge from like 1985 in his bag.

      Reply

      Regan Johnston

      8 years ago

      http://www.tutelman.com/golf/justgolf/squaregroove.php

      There’s the full article if you wanna read it big guy.

      Reply

      THEHacker

      8 years ago

      Groove didn’t matter on decent lie. If you have a good feel with the wedge in your hand, you will get the ball there. If you got a bad lie…. just hit & pray.. anything can happen. Even pros can’t guarantee good results.

      Reply

      Bill McMillan

      8 years ago

      Square grooves on my ping eye 2 beryllium clubs…

      Reply

      Eddie Ray Neaux

      8 years ago

      In my group, unless the face is made of sand paper, it’s legal.

      Reply

      Tyler Fisher

      8 years ago

      Not me Bubuy Balangue Ed Ekis PGA Golf Pro.

      Reply

      Bubuy Balangue

      8 years ago

      Well, Tyler is right. Since were putting it out there, might as well be aware on the right usage of words.

      Illegal is to drugs as non-conforming is to equipment.

      Reply

      hckymeyer

      8 years ago

      As others have stated the fact that the wedges performed the same from a range mat (aka fairway) isn’t much of a surprise.

      If you really want to make this an MGS labs article then give us testing based on real world scenario’s. I want to see the difference from different lies in different types of grasses.

      If my game was all fairways and greens I could just use a blank wedge and get the same results.

      Reply

      Josh Gold

      8 years ago

      Well when you could shred the cover of balls apart that creates more spin…now you change the height of shots and balls last 36 holes…

      Reply

      Kourtney Knowles

      8 years ago

      Grooves dont necessarily spin the ball its the surface of the club that does. Grooves channel debri away from the face so the ball can contact the face more. Older grooves were larger and channeled more debri that’s why they spinned more from the rough and other poor lies but not much difference from fairway. If you dont believe me hit a few swings from the bunker then without cleaning the club go chip a ball. The sand on the club face will be a much rougher surface causing more friction and imparting tons of spin even though the grooves are full of sand and dont come in contact with the ball.

      Reply

      Andrew

      8 years ago

      As someone who can generate 9 to 10000 rpm of spin with a wedge, I am fairly certain that the new grooves are very effective. With the new grooves I can get hop and stop performance, whereas with the old grooves the ball would often spin back much more then I had intended.

      Reply

      Mitchell Burney

      8 years ago

      What wedges did you use?

      Reply

      Blade

      8 years ago

      It doesn’t really matter. It was a comparison of near identical wedges with the grooves being the only real difference. It wasn’t about one brand over another.

      Reply

      Benjamin Lee

      8 years ago

      Cool test. I haven’t noticed the difference. Hoever, there is much more noticeable spin rate differences in premium golf balls than wedges.

      Reply

      John Duval

      8 years ago

      In my experience, the pre-2010 rule change grooves tended to spin the ball too much around the greens, to the detriment of many people’s short games. The ball came off the face low and checked hard when hit crisply. Great if you wanted to hit that kind of shot, but not so good if you want a standard chip that rolls out. The new grooves produce a higher ball flight and more predictable spin on chips and pitches. Spin is over-rated in the short game because average golfers can’t use it effectively anyway.

      Reply

      James Harding

      8 years ago

      i play wedges now and i get more spin probably than i did when i played wedges years ago that are now illegal

      Reply

      mcavoy

      8 years ago

      I thought the idea of grooves was to channel away debris so that it cant get between the ball and the clubface. If so, hitting off of mats wouldn’t serve the purposes of this test well.

      Reply

      Justin

      8 years ago

      Yes, Cochran and Stobbs proved this in 1968 with grooved and grooveless wedges. From the fairway, they performed the same. From the rough, the grooved wedge outperformed the grooveless wedge.

      Reply

      Bob Pegram

      8 years ago

      Was that the book The Search for the Perfect Golf Swing? Their names sound familiar.

      Ross Baker

      8 years ago

      Good on you Bob and Justin! You are the only 2 on the ball! You are both talking about the same book! Have a look, everyone by passes your comments, because they are all too tied up in their “Ego Trips” Forget about “Shape of Grooves” the fact is.. The difference between “Grooves” and “No Grooves At All” is Negligible! But then, The authors of “Search for the Perfect Swing” were not in the “Game” of “Selling” Golf Clubs! Ross Baker, Golf Club Maker (43 yrs) AUSTRALIA.

      Kevin Loughran

      8 years ago

      Thank you for this! The groove issu has always seemed like a case where the USGA perceived a problem that wasn’t really there, it benefitted the OEMs so they complained and the rank in file golfer got punished, I would use a different word but I’m a Rev for real. The same holds true for the anchor putting ban.

      Instead of expending it’s energy here or being concerned that a few iconic courses are being rendered obsolete by .01 of the golfing population I wish that the USGA would focus on rules that might make the game more equitable. Spike marks on the greens anyone?

      Reply

      dwayne

      8 years ago

      Yes. Why don’t they do something about that silly rule.
      The USGA reminds of management at work, they are there, so they have to do something, whether it makes sense or not.

      And as you alluded to, those old courses, many of them owned by the old money, want to stay relevant and the only way that will happen is to reign in the ball. So keep an eye on your balls fellas.

      Grooves, anchoring, it is now time to go after the ball, those tour pros hit the ball too far, so we all must be punished.

      Reply

      Mark

      8 years ago

      yep her comes a new rule governing balls those pros just hit them way too far but us other 99percent don’t have that problem so we’ll get the shaft with the new rule why make the game enjoyable for 99 percent of the people when there’s $$$to be made.

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