Drivers

MyGolfSpy Labs: The Worst Kept Secret in Golf

BY Matt Saternus
Feb 7th 2013
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// Worst Kept Secret In Golf!

What loft is your driver?

9.5°…maybe a 10.5?

What if I told you that what you thought was a 9.5° was actually a 12°? Paying attention now? Whatever loft is written on the sole of your driver is probably wrong. To be more exact, in our study we found that 92% of the time it’s wrong!

Shocked? You shouldn’t be: the fact that most OEM drivers are stamped inaccurately is one of the worst kept secrets in golf. But why? We went straight to the biggest names in golf and asked, so check into the “MyGolfSpy Lab” to learn why your 9.5* is probably an 11*…and why that might not be a bad thing.

// The Problem with Buying a Driver

With most things that you buy, you have the ability to verify that you’re getting what you asked for. When you buy a dozen eggs, you can open the carton to verify that you’re not getting eleven eggs instead of twelve. This is not the case when buying a driver. When you buy a driver, you simply have to trust that the manufacturer has accurately labeled the club.

This uncertainty leads to one of the most common rumors in the golf industry: club manufacturers consistently stamp lofts that are lower than the actual loft. We put this rumor to the test by measuring over 100 drivers and comparing the actual loft to the stamped loft. The results will shock you.

*All measuring was done by master club builders on Mitchell loft and lie machines. Any adjustable heads were set to stamped loft/neutral before measuring.

// Results

:: Overall companies missed their intended loft 92% of the time.

:: Mizuno was within the standard manufacturing tolerance of (+ or – 1°) 93% of the time.

:: Cobra was only within the standard manufacturing tolerance of (+ or – 1°) 40% of the time.

:: With the exception of Mizuno (0.7*) and Titleist (0.9*), every manufacturer that we tested missed the stamped loft by an average of 1* or more.

:: Only 8% of the drivers tested were accurately stamped for loft.

:: Over 16% of the drivers measured were off by 2° or more. This means you are twice as likely to buy a driver that’s 2° off as you are to buy one that is marked correctly!

:: Cobra had the largest % off by 2° or more with 40%.

:: Only 7 drivers out of 105 had less loft than advertised.

The question that remains is WHY?

// Tolerance

The boring half of the answer is that it’s hard to make thousands of drivers with the exact same loft. As a result, club makers accept that there will be some variation from club to club. The industry-standard tolerance is 1° above or below the “target” loft.

Now, if you look at our fancy graphic above, you’ll see that the vast majority have more loft than advertised. Why? Because the stamped loft is not always the target loft.

What is target loft? Glad you asked. The target loft is the loft that the manufacturer wants the club head to have. For example, the target for a “9.5°” might be 11°, so, with a +/- 1° tolerance, you would see club heads ranging from 10° to 12°. That brings us back to the question of “Why?”…

// Loft Issues

Having fit hundreds of golfers, I know firsthand that the average (male) golfer does not want to play more loft on their driver. If I had a dollar for every time I heard one of these…

“I’m more of a 9.5° guy.”

“10.5° seems to go too high.”

“I tried a 10.5°, but I didn’t like it.”

…I’d have a lot of dollars. Like, “sitting on a beach with a briefcase full of money” lot of dollars.

Why the issue with loft? Well a big part of it is rooted in the (inaccurate) perception that the guys on tour all play super low lofts. If the guys on tour play low lofts, you should, too, right? Because, you know, you’re super manly and stuff. WRONG!

First, the guys on tour play more loft than most people realize because they understand that you need loft to create the High Launch/Low Spin conditions that lead to longer drives. You won’t hurt my feelings if you don’t believe me on this, so I asked the guys who build the pros’ clubs. Tom Olsavsky, Senior Director of Product Creation for Metalwoods at TaylorMade, told us that “many tour players use 10.5°”.

Second, the guys on tour create WAY MORE club head speed than you. Because of this, their driver needs have as much in common with yours as your physique has in common with LeBron James’, which is to say NOTHING.

So let’s knock it off with the 9.5° stuff, ok?

// The OEMs Know About Your Ego

I’m not the only one who has noticed that golfers don’t like buying more than 9.5° or 10.5° on their driver; the manufacturers know it, too. That’s why your “9.5°” driver is closer to an 11°. (Actually after our study we found the average loft to be 1.02° higher compared to the stamped loft. So your 9.5° is actually more like a 10.52° to be exact.)

Our targets have been historically 0.5-1° weak in loft for drivers and fairways to account for the buying psychology of not buying enough loft. Usually we err on the side of more loft to help golfers, even though they won’t admit that they need more loft. – Tom Olsavsky, Senior Director of Product Creation for Metalwoods at TaylorMade

Why do they do this? Because they know that the average golfer can’t hit a true 9.5° out of their shadow. Combine that with the knowledge that the average golfer isn’t going to buy anything stamped 10.5° or higher, and the companies end up in a situation where they can:

A) Stamp the loft accurately, have you hit it nowhere, and not sell the club

B) Mis-label the club, have you hit it better, and sell the club

If your job is selling clubs, which one would you pick?

// WHAT SHOULD YOU DO?

You now know that the loft on the club can vary up or down 1° from the target due to manufacturing tolerances, and the target may not even be the loft stamped on the club. So what should you do with this knowledge? We have two suggestions:

1) Work with a good, reputable club fitter who can measure the actual loft of a driver and get you fit into the club that you need. A launch monitor fitting to assess your loft needs is a must.

2) Buy the club that you used in your fitting. If you were fit with a demo club or a club off of a fitting cart, insist on testing the actual club you are going to purchase before you buy. You may have hit the fitting club well, but it may have an entirely different loft (2° or more) than the club on the rack. A good club fitter will have no problem with you wanting to verify the results.

WHAT DO YOU THINK? Do you care how accurate the stamped loft is? Should the club makers label their drivers accurately? Would you buy a 12° driver? TELL THE MANUFACTURERS WHAT YOU THINK!

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comments

Join The Discussion

Dalton McCrary

9 years ago

I’ve been telling golfers for 30 years about the crap the Big 5 Club Manufacturers club are produced. ———– Finally you confirmed what I’ve been saying.

Great article here guys, Tusche’
Dalton

Dan Intile

9 years ago

Most ams ( club head speed < 90 mph ) shouldn't be hitting a driver. Should be hitting 3 wood with a 'driver length shaft.'

Gary

9 years ago

Actually should be hitting a 3-Wood loft with a driver size (460cc) with a shaft length 1″ shorter than normal driver length (44″ vs. 45″). The only club like this is made by Hireko Golf with their Thriver. It is 460cc, 210 gram weight (like normal 3 wood), 14 deg loft (close to normal 3 wood), but it has the face size of a normal driver. I’ve made many for bad golfers who keep buying 45″ + length Callaway, Taylormade, Nike, Ping drivers.

Marco

9 years ago

I hit the ball average 310-320. and i have 12.5 Loft!! My clubhad speed is arround 120mph. So why to be an idiot and giving yards away, just to say: hey i’m a 9.5 guy! By the way, this more loft will make your ballflight much straighter!!

Sinister Golf

9 years ago

As some have stated a lot of the smaller companies will hand pick loft, face angles, weight and lie angle for you, I saw Krank posted that they will, at sinister golf we offer this and I know Geek Golf will do the same.

Pat Thomas, Sr.

10 years ago

If I could increase my distance, I wouldn’ care what the real loft was. Sometimes I think about this and believe that a higher loft and a stiffer shafts would suit me better. I have a smooth transition, and I am almost 70. I have a range of 230-240 and I am very accurate with all my woods.

Perhaps I will pursue this when I have saved for a fitting by a specialist, for woods AND irons. I already did for my putter, which is the highest priority because it comprises the most strokes. That makes the driver next.

PhilN

10 years ago

Very Interesting. I was fitted by TMAG ~ 18 months ago. Apparently, I’m adding ~ 4 degrees to the loft of the driver through impact. I ended up with a RBZ 9.5 tweaked as open as possible – allegedly taking it down to 8 degrees. I still cannot get a penetrating flight with roll out unless I more or less deliberately hook it! I’m your standard nearly 50 guy, play off 6 with driver speed of 94 MPH.
According to all sensible predictions, I should be using a very low driver!

Charlie

10 years ago

Has anyone seen studies like this one in relation to irons? I’d love to see it!

Joe Hoosier

10 years ago

Great topic and dialogue on the data….the data doesn’t lie…..I’ve never thought about the loft beging off spec that much. I’ll go out on a limb and suggest the mfgs are doing to same thing with length (not off spec, but convincing the buyers that 46″ or 45 3/4″ is where they need to be…..to your point, there are several variables and a good fitter and handful of sessions is well worth the money to get the most out of your game. Ever since shaft lengths started pushing 46″ from previous 44.5 & 45 zones, I’ve noticed my swing and distance have changed, not always for the better. Would enjoy seeing a study by MyGolfSpy on length as well.

John R

10 years ago

I seem to have the opposite problem: can’t get as much loft as I would ideally like. Bought a Ping K15 driver with the highest loft option, 12*. It’s ok, but I know that if it was a 13.5 it would go further and slightly straighter. Judging by your article, I am probably asking for a 15* driver! Could this be the reason why most average swingspeed golfers hit their 3 woods as far as their drivers, sometimes even further? I have carefully observed my best drives (about 230 yards carry), and noticed that they have an alarmingly steep ball flight, like that of a 6 iron. My average drives however (about 190 yards carry), have more of the penetrating ball flight you typically hear most male amateurs say they are looking for. Manufacturers are pandering to the macho whims of ignorant fools. Why? Because it sells golf clubs. A friend of mine, 4 hcp, hits his 5 iron 200 yards carry and his 10.5* driver 240 carry with his eyes shut. I lent him my 12* driver, and guess what? He hit it longer and straighter! Lee Westward hit a drive over 450 yards this year at the Open, Muirfield. He plays an 11.75* driver! Nuff said.

Zane Jakobs

11 years ago

I find this to be a mojor annoyance, being a player with a 113 mph seing speed, and a 4.1* positive AoA, as i need a driver with about 9.75-10.25 ((depending on the club)(and yes, i have been Trackman fitted)), so it can be hard to find the right club. But thanks a lot, Golf Spies, for educating us as to how much if a problem there actually is.

Joe Golfer

11 years ago

Tom Wishon, who has his own company that makes components, and who also writes for
GolfWRX.com (related to Golf Digest) has a tremendous study on adjustable drivers.
He didn’t believe the OEM clubmaker’s claims about adjusting loft. Adjusting lie angle or face angle, he believed.
He tested four drivers: Taylor Made R1, Titleist 913D2, Ping Anser, and Nike Covert.
You’d be amazed at the results.
Even if you don’t want to read the whole article, just read the conclusion to it at the end.
The amounts that these adjustable drivers are “off” on their specs is a lot more than even this particular article above notes.
http://wishongolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/adjustable-hosel-drivers.pdf

Kris

11 years ago

Wow crazy. For the R1, it seems the sole plate almost entirely set loft. The loft setting seemed only to affect face angle. Covert too. Though I’m curious to note it was the Tour model they tested, so I’m not surprised everything is open, but 4° at the low end, if accurate, would make this a slice machine. I own the Covert Performance, and I promise you when I change the loft, it has major influence on ball flight, and is readily visible at address whether set nearer the 8.5 or 12.5 loft. 14.5 measured for Ping and Titleist is crazy. Not surprising though.

Adam Huckeby

11 years ago

So I would like to know how accurate they are club to club. Say i pick 10 RFE’s off the rack…9.5 marked heads….will they measure out all high but pretty close together…say 10.9 degrees or something?

John V

11 years ago

Are the inconsistent measured lofts an issue with TM’s R1? Since there is no stamped loft, can we trust that all R1’s are built equally?

Ross

11 years ago

I feel that a tolerance of +/- 1 degree is far to high a tolerance for the manufacturers to use, it sounds minimal however drivers commonly only range through 4 degrees (8.5 to 11.5) allowing your purchased club to be 25% out of this range in either direction is severely high. given the clubs are all made through automated processes the errors are again extremely high and seem to be of little consideration to the manufacturer.

Rev Kev

11 years ago

This was a very disconcerting read not so much because of the miss marking but because of the fact that I went and got fit for a driver last year and of course then had it ordered. Given that it was from TMag’s tour fitting lab I couldn’t test it first. In my opinion I launch it higher than I did in my testing but of course I don’t know that for certain – it’s an opinion. Now I’m going to have that seed of doubt.

The good news is it’s an adjustable head and I have the wrench. I’m going to dial it down a notch just to see what happens.

Interestingly I found I needed less loft that I thought not because I have a tour level swing speed but because I swing nearly 3 degrees up and launch the ball very high – My fitter moved me from a 10.5 back down to a 9.5 turned up one which I guess is a 10.25 but I probably went from and 11.75 to an 11.0

Right?

Tony Wright

11 years ago

Rev Kev – treat yourself. Do not assume what the loft is for your driver with different settings, find someone who has the right loft/lie measurement equipment and knows how to measure driver loft and find out what it really is with different settings. Then you can set your driver to different settings and know what you really have. If you do this also have measurements made of face angles at different settings too. You deserve it!

Rev Kev

11 years ago

Thanks for the suggestion – I actually know someone who could do this for me.

Tony Wright

11 years ago

Rev Kev – treat yourself. Find out what the loft of your driver is for different settings, also face angles. Find someone who knows how to measure driver loft and face angle. You deserve it!

Jeff

11 years ago

Reminds me of a recent demo day at our club. A friend was trying out some clubs that were not right for him. We knew his ego would get in his way, so we had the rep hand him the clubs and say “Don’t look at it…just hit it.” until he was hitting it longer and solid. What he was trying: 9 degree driver with regular or firm flexes, couldn’t hit it further than 180 w/ a big fade. What he could hit: 11 degrees with a senior flex, 200-215 straight to a slight draw. Same thing with irons – he grabbed a 6 iron in steel w/ regular flex, hitting it about 130 w/ a fade; we hand him a 6 iron with senior graphite, 150-155 w/ a slight draw. I am convinced I should do the same for myself when I get fit for my next set of clubs, just let them hand me a club and swing it without inspecting the loft or flex.

Larry

9 years ago

From reading all this one can only say that the numbers on clubs mean squat. If the drivers aren’t accurate and the shafts aren’t standardized from one companies flex verses another, couple that with the strong lofted clubs they keep marketing (a 5 iron today is like a 4 iron even a 3.5 in some cases) and the only conclusion you can come to is every company is going to manufacture and market their brand and that meaning there is no standard. The golf industry needs to get some standardization if we as consumers are to have any trust in the products they are selling us. Otherwise find a retailer that will let you try a few sets to play and from there you can make your choice.

Golfercraig

11 years ago

One more thing–if you are using a LM indoors, you are a fool. Outdoors only. Period. Inside, it’s a Launch Liar, not a launch monitor. I worked the van for an OEM, and we tried our best to get the right equation for inside vs. outside. It’s not possible. None of them, not Trackman, not Flightscope, none, are precise indoors. In our testing they were off by as much as 15% in any of the major important numbers (SS, LA, BS, angle of declination, RPM). Really, don’t use them. They are wrong.

Golfercraig

11 years ago

I like reading stuff like this, but what I like more are the comments. Especially the ones regarding using a frequency analyzer for your shaft. Doing that is farther behind the times than thinking your 8.5* is actually 8.5* Frequency is a useless number thrown around by half-ass club fitters.

Tony Wright

11 years ago

Well that is an interesting comment, it would be good to know why you think that and what is better. I guess you think that many of the Golf Digest Top 100 Club Fitters who use frequency analyzers are h-a fitters. Hope you reply……

Craig

11 years ago

Sooooo… I tried a friends rbz last fall and hit best drives of my life. Some a shade under 300 with most 270 which is almost 40-70 yds more than other drivers I used.
However when I bought one myself I hit it good, very good, but not quite as well as the other guys… Just felt a bit off.
Assumed it’s in my head when now you tell me they could be different lofts. I knew some small differences but had no clue the huge variances.

Paul

11 years ago

Were the “100 clubs” all from this year or last?

Golfspy Matt

11 years ago

It was a mixed bag based on what was available.

Best,

Matt

Mark

11 years ago

It’s becoming more obvious to me that in the future all major golf companies will only produce drivers that are adjustable.To solve the common “what loft is it really?” question, I think drivers will not have a stated loft. Since it is now standard to have a 2* + or – adjustable head ( R1 and Covert ) drivers from 8*-12* or 9*-13* will be the norm. My point is the actual degree of loft need not be printed on the clubhead, just hash marks from a neutral starting point. This way your clubfitter could do his/her job properly respecting the ego of the golfer. Now if we could only get golfers to use a 44.5″ driver shaft but think it’s really a 46″ shaft , that’s the next roadblock.

Tony Wright

11 years ago

If this happens it would not be a very good result for golfers. If a driver has variable loft of say 8 to 12 degrees, it means that the driver face angle would also vary by 4 degrees. You cannot vary driver face angle and loft independently.

GolfSpy T

11 years ago

While it is technically impossible to truly decouple loft and face angle, what a bi-axis hosel system, such as Nike’s FlexLoft or the technology on which Harrison has a patent pending can do is fundamentally alter the relationship between the two, which from a purely functional standpoint is effectively the same as decoupling.

jason

11 years ago

Tom Olsavsky, Senior Director of Product Creation for Metalwoods at TaylorMade, told us that “many tour players use 10.5°”.

So let’s knock it off with the 9.5° stuff, ok?

Did you bother to ask how many play 10.5*? just leaving it at “many” is vague. Many of them also use 8.5* drivers
Also, you may want to ask why certain tour players choose higher loft.
One answer can be found by looking at PGA Tour Trackman avg’s and realizing that PGA tour pro’s avg A of A is -1.3 w/ a driver. Therefore they are hitting down on the driver and may need more loft. Also the tour issue drivers tend to be closer to the stamped loft therefore, the tour players “10.5*” is basically the same as a retail 9.5*
Tour players are not in the business of hitting it as far as they can, but as far as they can while controlling it at a reasonable level. They are more concerned with hitting it where they can find it.
Also, it is not all about clubhead speed to determine loft, some people with 100 mph swingspeed may need an 8.5* if they have a high + A of A
The point is get fit for your driver, but don’t chide me with the “So let’s knock it off with the 9.5° stuff, ok?” comment. Use what fits you, not what you think you need.

Eric

11 years ago

I’ve been thinking about this a bit. It seems that the evidence suggests that all manufacturers have a policy of using a target loft and that loft is *generally* higher than the stamped loft. Since there is variability, it is certainly possible to pick a club off the shelf that differs from the one used in fitting. HOWEVER, what this article doesn’t do is indicate how much variance there is across a population from the target loft. Let’s say Ping uses a target loft that is 1.5 degrees over the stamped loft. If there is a very small variability from the target loft across the population, then it’s pretty unlikely that you’ll get a significantly different result from grabbing the ‘prettiest’ one in the rack after fitting. However, if the variability from the target is large then you can’t trust anything and it would be wise to buy the club you fell in love with during fitting.

You can’t tell for certain from the graph in this article, but it almost appears to me that Ping has the best manufacturing tolerances. A very small % is on-spec (stamped spec) while there it’s close to 50/50 on the over/under 1.5 degree tolerance. If their target is 1.5 degrees, then it’s possible that their manufacturing achieves *very close* to +1.5 degrees most of the time. I like that, because at least I can trust it.

GolfSpy Matt

11 years ago

Eric,

You raise an excellent point. One of the things we really wanted to do was measure variance from target loft, but not a single OEM would provide us with specific target lofts for specific products.

With regard to your second paragraph, I’m not sure how you reach the conclusion that Ping has the best tolerances. Look at Mizuno: 93% of their clubs were within 1* of each other. No one else can touch that. Ping drivers ranged from .75* UNDER marked loft to 2.5* OVER marked loft, a range of 3.25*. Mizuno’s range was less than half of that, 1.5*.

Ultimately, my recommendation is the same regardless of what brand you buy or what you take away from the graph: HIT THE CLUB YOU’RE GOING TO BUY BEFORE YOU BUY IT. Whether you’re buying a $99 special or a $499 top of the line model, why would you potentially waste the money on a club that isn’t what you want?

Best,

Matt

Bill Weitzel

11 years ago

Independent Professional Fitters and Builders as myself have been telling golfers this for years but we are generally ignored by most golfers. I am glad to see someone else post this as it always “sounds better when someone else says it”.

We call it “Testosterone Disease”, when golfers “have to have” an 8*, 9*, or 10*, regardless of what is actually optimal for most of them. Angle of attack and where the ball is struck on the face plays a huge roll in your success, an often overlooked factor.

If you think about it, more often than not, everybody usually wins if you purchase a driver that is actually higher lofted than stated. Drivers tend to err on being higher lofted compared to what is stamped on the head as opposed to lower lofted, though I have seen to the contrary, it’s just rarer.

The golfer “feels” better about the lower lofted head (vs what they need …. hello testosterone!), hence, they like their club more (hopefully). The tighter the specs at the foundry in China/Taiwan, the more the head costs the manufacturer.

Almost none of them “make” their own stuff. It’s contracted out to the designer’s specs. Nothing wrong with that, just a fact that many are not aware of. The manufacturer makes a sale and since most of the OEMs are publicly held companies on the NYSE, more profits for the company, job security for them, and the shareholders are pleased too. As I said, everybody wins!

Dave

11 years ago

This explains why when I went to a Ping fitting a year or so ago they put me in a 9 degree G15. I thought this was odd because I dont swing very fast or hit the ball super far, but I can hit this one pretty good.

carlito

11 years ago

the thread is so long, so i apologize if this has already been asked. does this problem exist with the drivers comking out in 2013 that are fully adjustable?? ie nike, taylormade, cobra???

Tony Wright

11 years ago

Again, just because you can adjust the loft of a driver does not mean they are “fully adjustable.” Will give you an example. Let’s say an adjustable head has a loft of 8.5 degrees, and assume that its face angle at that 8.5 degrees is square. If you make the loft of that driver 9.5 degrees the face angle becomes 1 degree open. If you make it 10.5 degrees, its face angle becomes 2 degrees open. Face angle of drivers is important.

Larry

9 years ago

Question? I thought if you increase loft you close the face on these adjustable drivers, and vice versa. At least that’s what Iv’e seen on some. I believe the X hot callaway.

VARaider

11 years ago

Very enlightening article and very well written. At my age I don’t give a hoot what loft is stamped on my driver, I just want the driver/loft (adjustable or not) that fits my swing. However, from what I’ve read here the only way it seems you can achieve this is 1) buy the demo driver, or 2) buy a tour van head. My question, is it possible to special order a specific exact loft from the manufacturer?

GolfSpy Matt

11 years ago

Thank you very much.

You can order an exact loft from Ping, but there is a fee ($25 or $50, if I remember correctly). To my knowledge, they’re the only OEM that offers this.

You can also do what I suggested in the post above (written after you’d posted) and have the store tape up the club you’re going to buy so you can hit it.

Best,

Matt

Max

11 years ago

Does the tape on the face alter, in any way, the launch or flight characteristics of the ball, like reduced back spin or side spin? Any affect on the way the thin, springy flexing faces perform? Has anyone tested this to collect data? Seems like it would be pretty easy to hit some shots with and without tape on the same driver and measure the difference.

A new mygolfspy lab?

I’ve been told that it doesn’t matter, but it seems like more than once I thought I hit the drives better with the tape on the face than after I bought the club and hit it without the tape. Maybe it was just buyer’s remorse.

Thanks for the articles.

Golfspy Matt

11 years ago

My intuition says that a piece of masking tape isn’t going to have much impact on a collision happening at 100MPH or so. That sad, I don’t have any data to back it up. We will add this to the Labs List. Thanks.

-Matt

Tony Wright

11 years ago

The majority of custom driver heads (not talking OEM heads now) can be ordered to the exact specs that result from a custom fitting.

Andy

11 years ago

Most of the time it isn’t possible to get fit and then buy the actual club that you hit. Nor most of the time would you want to buy a club that’s been used by everyone who’s come for a fitting for 2 months.

Nice idea, but it doesn’t work like this. Even at TaylorMade’s Wentworth HQ, you get measured and then have to order yours based on the numbers.

GolfSpy Matt

11 years ago

If we assume that most people are buying their clubs at a big box (a good assumption), there’s no reason they can’t hit the club they’re going to purchase. Even if you test a demo club first, ask the fitter/sales associate to tape the one you’re actually going to purchase before you buy it.

-Matt

GolfSpy T

11 years ago

The consumer is often his own worst enemy in this respect. He’ll hit clubs at a big box, or maybe even a non-giant-corporate-owned-golf-superstore. He’ll find one he likes (one that hopefully provides the desired launch characteristics too), and then he’ll put it back on the rack, go home, go online and try and find a better deal from an online pro shop or eBay.

Jeff

11 years ago

I am using a driver from KZG it is stamped ML , I can hit it high and long , I guess my fitter knew what was best for me.

Joe Golfer

11 years ago

I suppose you could have the clerk at the golf store put the driver you are considering purchasing on the loft/lie bending machine for an exact measurement.
Then you will know for sure what the actual loft is prior to purchasing.
It is surprising that companies are often way way off on their listed lofts, as they typically advertise a +/- 1* of standard deviation.
Too bad they don’t stand behind that by having a policy like: if your driver isn’t within the standard deviation of 1* plus or minus, we’ll refund your money, and you keep the driver.

There’s a component company called Tom Wishon Golf, well respected and even included in Golf Digest’s Hot List of clubs. Wishon even writes some equipment articles for golfwrx.com, not touting his own stuff, but mostly about how shafts react and what’s best for whom. Like most component companies, they have the +/- 1* deviation, but one can ask them to give you an exact spec for your driver. It costs an extra four dollars more than the regular cost of the clubhead, so if you really want to be exact, that’s one way to go.

Juno

11 years ago

dont care much about the stamped loft. But good to know. goes to show how much ego plays into purchasing trends. I have a 10.5 degree driver. wouldn’t have a problem buying a higher lofted driver if it helped my game.

william Pucci

11 years ago

I work selling and fitting clubs and the loft question is so puzzling.No matter how much information is out there regarding the need for more loft the macho need to lie is stronger than getting the proper fit.Today I had two people who demanded 8.5 with Xstiff for a starting point. The only true way to fit someone and get past the EGO is to get them on a real launch monitor.It kills me people will spend $399 for a driver and refuse the $29 for the “Quick fit” launch monitor. Right now we are offering free quick fits for all the new drivers. As an article on Mygolfspy once said 90% of people don’t tell the truth where their games are concerned so building a relationship is a great start to a proper fitting.

GolfSpy Matt

11 years ago

Kudos to you and your store for offering free fitting. Once golfers are shown the benefit, they’ll appreciate that level of service.

Best,

Matt

Tom E

11 years ago

I have a Callaway FT1 driver and 3 wood. The driver is labeled 10 degrees and it is the straightest driver I have had (at 69 years old finally). I hit it with a pretty low trajectory. The 3 wood doesn’t seem to have any loft at all. What should it be and where or how can I measure it. I can’t get it 10 feet off the ground. I’m new to club design etc. Thank you. Tom

Tony Wright

11 years ago

Most 3 woods for the general public these days are 15 degrees of loft Tom. Tiger plays a 15 degree loft 3 wood. Suggest you find a club fitter who has a loft / lie gauge and he can measure the loft of your 3 wood. Most likely it is something like 13 degrees – probably too low.

Ray

11 years ago

Interesting article. I have not played long and have a ranging 18-21 handicap. Right now my Nike driver says 8.5 degrees, But I tend to hit it very high unless I play it back further in my stance. I have hit higher lofts lower then I hit this one.This just goes to show that I do need to get out and get fitted for the right gear soon. Of course, practice is going to help me more at this point.

finalist

11 years ago

Does anybody have a good at home way to measure loft?

I know the shaft should be on a vertical plane, but how do you know if the lie is right before you put a compass on the face to read loft?

I’ll start a forum topic..

Tony Wright

11 years ago

Here is a link to how Tom Wishon measures lofts of drivers…..

http://www.mcnixgolf.com/Custom_Fitting/Lie_-_Loft/lie_-_loft.html

chris

11 years ago

Haha always suspected that but nice to be affirmed. My closeted friends and thier 9* drivers always made me laugh. Did this test the same for fairway woods and rescues?

GolfSpy Matt

11 years ago

If you look at the block quote from Taylormade’s Tom Olsavsky, he said the same thing applies to drivers and fairways. We did not test fairways or hybrids, so we don’t know, but my guess is that they are likely “weak” lofted as well. Again, just a guess.

Best,

Matt

James

11 years ago

Don’t even start with the shafts. On a frequency machine measure your shaft for flex. I bought a 910 d3 and fitted the shaft with a pro fitter on A1 to get 9.5 degrees. After 11 heads we found one that was at 9.8. Not one of the 11 shafts tested where at the proper flex. I had a Accra Dymatch fitted. Out of the 5 accra’s tested 4 where on the number the same flex. Did the spine and had the shaft fitted on B3 as this setting gave a 9.8 loft 1 degree open. The driver is now perfect, never change settings, adjustability as a lot of crap…

Ryan

11 years ago

What is the guy supposed to do that does have a higher swing speed and needs a lower lofted club. I have been fitted and whenever the club comes in, it never seems to work. I ordered a Krank Element and am very anxious to see if their lofts are as described. Were any Krank Drivers used to measure loft?

Golfspy Matt

11 years ago

Learn to hit the ball with a positive AoA? Just kidding. :)

This is definitely an issue. The only option I know of is to pay for Ping’s digital lofting service which will get it within .25*, if I remember correctly. Some component companies may offer similar services.

Krank was not part of this test.

-Matt

BR

11 years ago

Agree with this advice. Ping service gets as close as manufacturing tolerances allow. Also, since he mentioned Krank, many component companies offer hand pick/bending services and can mark location of measurement, etc. Some retailers will request this for you during ordering process (saw this at a demo day outing).

KrankGolf

11 years ago

Yes we do offer hand picking for Customers who wish to have a certain loft. We check loft 4 times before sending out to Customers. If one asks for a given loft, we send it.

Tony Wright

11 years ago

When you buy a custom head from a company like Krank and ask for a specific loft, that is exactly what you get. That is one of the reasons they are custom.

Bill Halstead

11 years ago

I would rather drivers be labeled correctly. Then I can figure out what loft I need and want. Otherwise, I cannot determine it.

jmiller065

11 years ago

First off finally something in the labs that I don’t have the urge to poke holes into, that is a small victory for MGS, I have said this exact thing on the forums a few times over the last year but it’s nice to see validation of my words that stamped loft is BS most the time and the error is almost always higher lofts.

If you divide the driver in 1/2 from bottom to top of the face and 1/2 from left to right you get 4 sections of the face. The true sweet spot on a driver based on the CG of the driver is almost always higher on the face then the physical center by anything from 1/2″ to 2″. The loft at this point is almost always higher thanks to club manufactures roll (curve from bottom to top of the face). A club measured at say 9.3* in the dead center might be 10.7* at the true sweet spot, it all depends on the amount of roll it could be 10* (small amount of roll) up to 14* (large amount of roll). When you get into the higher swing speeds you get into the balls gear effect, lower then the true sweet spot more spin and lower launch angle, higher then the true sweet spot less spin and higher launch angle. You want to optimize the driver loft to the true sweet spot not the center of the face if you are going to spend the money to be fit.

I have a tour head Adams Fast 12 LS came specifications of 9.3* of loft in the center of the face. It is also stamped 9.5* of loft. I didn’t pay an arm and a leg for it think I got a shaft, head, installed, etc for around $550 bucks. If you were to buy a TMaG R1 off the self it’s $399 plus an upgrade shaft would be about $200, or $599.00 I saved myself money actually going the custom fitting route and buying a tour head then buying a self model and re-shafting it not having a clue of the true loft.

I think it was a better (and cheaper in my case) to get fitted, but a tour head and buy a shaft as components and have it all assembled so that I know EXACTLY, what I am hitting with that club no guess work.

GolfSpy Matt

11 years ago

You don’t want to try to poke holes in this? Phew. I’m going to sleep a lot better now. #sarcasm.

golfer4life

11 years ago

If they’re all measured the same it doesn’t matter where there measured at. Problem is that most everything in golf there is no way of standard measuring. The true sweet spot is 1/2″ -2″ higher on the face from center? Wow that’s a lot.
Sleep well Matt

Golfspy Matt

11 years ago

It is mind boggling that the industry doesn’t even have standards for how to measure length. Tell 100 non-golfers that TMAG and Titleist can’t agree on how long a club is; they’ll look at you like you have two heads!

golfer4life

11 years ago

It was funny when they got the shaft manufactures together to have a unified way of measuring shafts. They all thought it was a great idea until everyone insisted on using there method. Nobody would budge insisting there way was best. In short, meeting over and we have what we have.

jmiller065

11 years ago

Yea take the head only with no shaft balance it on a pin, it is never the physical center, it depends on how deep the face is and where the CG sits. Because most CGs are lower the true sweet spot would be higher then physical center 1/2 to 1″ is most common deep faces might end up being 2″ but that’s more extreme.

jmiller065

11 years ago

Most of the things posted in this lab do not provide any proof of anything nothing more then opinion, there is not enough data in most of them to consist of a valid “proof” mathematically or scientifically. So majority of them are not “labs” at all as they are not true scientific experiments in the reporting more an opinion based on minor testing.

golfer4life

11 years ago

And next you can add the wrong loft driver with the shaft marked stiff that’s just a shade over sr/m/lite. ;-) I do believe the new heads that aren’t stamped with a degree will help this some (not fixing the problem, but helping control the ego part of things) Iv’e also noticed that the offerings of how much a club is adjustable isn’t always true either (or even close for that matter) Great article, keep the good info coming guys!

Golfspy Matt

11 years ago

That is a damned interesting question! I will have to talk to some people about how we could test the adjustability claims. Thanks for the suggestion.

Kuz

11 years ago

With the advent of adjustable drivers does the loft accurancy still an issue? The new Taylormade R1 claims to be adjustable from 8 to 12 degrees of loft. I would tend to think that a person will settle on a setting that gives him/her the ball flight that they want. What do others think?

Craig

9 years ago

The problem is you can’t change the loft on an adjustable driver.
The only thing you are changing is the lie angle and the face angle.
So all this marketing on adjustable drivers that can change loft is just Bullshit.

Dave S

11 years ago

Ok, so two things:

1) What about Cleveland?

2) This is why manufacturers are going to flex lofts… they no longer have to put numbers on the club that would deter some buyers (who don’t want their friends to see they’re hitting an 11.5 degree driver) and can produce/distribute just one product… win-win. Now this still begs the question: are the lofts on the new adjustable drivers wrong too? If you set it at 11 degrees (bc you don’t swing 110mph) is that really 11 degrees or will they still mislabel them making that 11 actually a 13?

GolfSpy T

11 years ago

I’ll leave it to Matt to answer the Cleveland question.

Regarding lofts on the new generation of FlexLoft/MyFly/LoftSleeve…

I have spoken with one OEM directly on this topic and have been told that the stated lofts remain stronger than the actual loft. Adjustability doesn’t change the fundamental issue that guys are playing the wrong loft. Guys who think 9.5 is ideal are more likely than not going to adjust their new driver to 9.5 and leave it there (despite all the adjustability available most golfers report they “set it and forget it”.).

The new clubs essentially insure that you can’t buy the wrong the loft, but they don’t really do anything to prevent one from using the wrong loft.

Paul

11 years ago

In actuality, they don’t ensure you get the loft you need on the low end. If one would actually need an 8 deg lofted driver, the “one club” deals out the window due to the fact it starts at a higher loft than that.. If one needs an 8.5, but the 8 is measured at 8.75 to start, again, one can’t actually get the loft needed. Why not just be honest, stamp it correctly, and if a guy needs to play an 8 or 8.5 just to fit his ego, let him! He’s gonna buy it no matter what. Then, those of us who want what is best and don’t stinking care what the number is, we get what we need too.

Golfspy Matt

11 years ago

Cleveland was left out because the club builder that we worked with did not have the required number of Cleveland heads.

Matt

Dave S

11 years ago

So other than getting fitted (unfortunately, some of us just don’t have the time to do so), we should still purchase 9.5-10 degree drivers given the mislabeling.

Golfspy Matt

11 years ago

Dave,

If you don’t have the time to get fit (usually an hour at most), then why are you buying a driver? Please don’t take that as being sarcastic, it’s a sincere question. Why are you buying the driver if you don’t know that it will perform better?

Based on what we’ve shown here, and the fact that we know shafts can be similarly inconsistent, and the variations from one brand/model to the next in terms of launch characteristics, how can you possibly throw down $300 or $400 without testing it and being fit first? Again, I mean this as a serious question.

It seems to me that if you don’t want to get fit, you might as well buy a driver blindfolded, literally.

-Matt

Gary

11 years ago

Matt: Unfortunately, that is how 90% of ALL golfers buy clubs. Even when I do a 1 – 1.5 hour outdoor fitting (in which, I research the best fitting shaft), some golfers still insist on buying their clubs at Sports Authority or Sports Chalet because the salesperson (who is working on commission) told them to buy a certain club that the store wants to liquidate.

So, many golfers will always buy blindfolded.

Manetti

9 years ago

So… I went to a well known golf retail shop and was fitted for a Ping G30.

We went through several shafts and different lofts on the adjustable head, using the very fancy simulatorEnded up with a senior shaft and a 10.5* loft (Marked). What is it really? Do not know. just that in play it is performing better for me than others I have purchased.

Suggestion – get fitted!!!

BR

11 years ago

Another good article guys. Some thoughts: I suggest reading Tom Wishon’s “Search for the Perfect Driver” book. In additon, guys at GOLFLAB and their Clubfitter’s Notebook – August 16, 2012 newsletter regarding TM driver loft. Finally, a lot of drivers have vertical face bulge and roll and it determines loft degrees at position on the face the measurement is taken (IE, did you measure high or low, etc).

Golfspy Matt

11 years ago

From the club builder: vertical center and relative to the shaft.

Matt

C.Evans

11 years ago

I buy tour van heads with spec stickers and it solves the guessing.

GolfSpy Matt

11 years ago

Which is a great solution for people who want to spend $500+ on a head. :roll:

…and it doesn’t address the issue of people not knowing what loft they actually need.

-Matt

C.Evans

11 years ago

If you know what you’re looking for and who to deal with, you’re not spending $500 on a head unless you just don’t know what you’re doing. The one in my bag currently wasn’t half that much. I paid no more than a retail club cost for mine. Helps to know who to contact and deal with though.

Gary

11 years ago

Just hit the nail on the head, Matt. 99% of golfers don’t know what loft they need. Most on this forum will disagree, however having done this for the past 40 years I know it to be true. Thanks for the great article.

KFlare

11 years ago

It’s nice to see an example of OEMs lying to the benefit of the consumer! It sure beats 29-deg 7-irons and forged composite anything.

Joe Golfer

11 years ago

Amen, KFlare :)

frank

11 years ago

Was fitted last year by a local fitter who uses nakishima driver heads because they foudn them to be the most accurate as far as loft stamped. that said I was fit into a 9 degree Nak which I wasn’t buying with an XCON 7 shaft for 750. I opted to go get a head and have them check it out for me. I bought the 9.5 tour RBZ which came back as 11.25 degree. with the adjustable head 1.5 degree I got it down to 9.75 and was relatively satisfied with the results. I did seek the 9 degree driver with buying ping and the adam 9064 stud which MGS reivew as one of the tops. the ping listed as 9.5 came at 10.25 and was not adjsutable. the adams was actually stamped 8.5 and really 8. I have recently purchase dthe speeline super s which i know is stamped 9.5-11.5 who the heck knows what i ma going to get. I have an APP for angle finding which doesn’t go tot he tenth (think you have to pay for that one) but it is pretty darn accurate. I use the method a taking 10 measurements for the loft put in playing position and leanign the phone against the face flush. worked pretty well with my irons and I had them tested on a mitchelle which came out spot on. when I get the new head I will reply back soudl be here by tomorrow or saturday.

MGS matt did you do the new Adams Super S? if so how are they compared to the other TMAG clubs. is one model more pronounced than the others? I know this took a hell of alot of time to figure out but i was just wondering if the data was kept by club?

GolfSpy Matt

11 years ago

Adams was not one of the manufacturers tested.

We have some data on the models tested and found that there weren’t any pronounced trends in terms of one model being “more wrong” than another.

Best,

Matt

dick

11 years ago

Great article, its interesting the older I get the less enticed by ego I’ve become. I used to be the 9.5 – 10.5* guy, years ago my swing was more upright and I hit the ball higher. Now that my chest has sunken into my stomach, I prefer a 12*. Maltby did a study years ago on tolerances in clubs and found much the same issue.

Matt

11 years ago

Would I buy a 12* driver? Absolutely, because I know that it’s what I should be using and I’m in the market for one right now, although I’m going component, not OEM.

jmichels

11 years ago

Interesting. I recently bought an 8.5-degree-loft driver. At the store, I hit the same driver in all loft variations and decided 8.5 was for me. Kind of a scary choice, so it took a few visits to the store before I pulled the trigger. But every time I did my little experiment, it always pointed to the 8.5.

The interesting part, at least to me, is that my drives seemed to go higher than I thought an 8.5-degree loft should make them go. Leading me to wonder to my playing partners–more than once–whether loft-determination standards had recently changed.

Back in the ’70s, the Society of Automotive Engineers changed the way horsepower was commonly measured and cited, causing an immediate drop in all cars’ hp numbers. Kind of a different situation, since it was done to placate the insurance industry, but kind of the same, too.

Thanks for looking into this.

Justin

11 years ago

Traditionally, the loft was determined by putting it in a special gauge and measuring from the center of the face (or named another way, half its vertical height) with the face angle set to 0*. Because of the way the face curves vertically- known as “roll”- the center is the only place where the manufactured loft is truly going to be set. Anything above center will measure higher, anything below center will measure lower. I haven’t heard of any new methods, though some people are interested in measuring the loft at the face’s “vertical impact point”. If you’ve heard of vertical gear effect, measure your driver’s face at a point just above the center of the face, where the vertical gear effect would take place.

Princeton_TN

11 years ago

I think it is funny that now of all times you post this! Isn’t this the reasoning behind TMAG, Nike and Cobra bringing out the One Club for All Loft’s Drivers? I can buy the club that offers all these different lofts set it to my specs that my fitter and I determained is the best fit for me and then when I get home or after the round I change it to open as far as it goes and the loft as low as it goes. This way when my golfing buddies see me on the range before our next tee time and they want to see it and hit, they hit it 15 yards off the ground, a squirting, diving hooked worm burner and they look at me and say, “How in the world can you hit it”? I gladly inform them that my swing is just like Phil’s and that I too need a 6.5* Driver thats Opened 4.5* to help keeping me from hooking everything I hit! Then as they leave the practice tee to get their beer or beverages for the front 9, I take out my tool and set the R1 back to my needed specs and smoke them the entire round. This does a couple of things, first I have the upper hand on each tee box because these guys think I am smashing a 6.5* driver 295-305 just like the Tour Pros, I am in their head, BIG TIME! Second I have pretty much convinced them that this new driver that will cost them anywhere from 400-600 isn’t the fit for them, cause they swing just like me, yet they really couldn’t hit the thing worth a darn! So I have made sure the entire round they are thinking about how many times I am going to “Super Center” them (Super Center them means that after we both hit our drives, you could build a Wal Mart Super Center in between them) and how much money they stand to loose today, and I have made for almost damn sure that their game won’t be improving because they are scared to spend that much money on a club and hit it like they hit it on the practice tee!
I love this game, and the games that the OEM’s help us to play with our closest friends, coworkers, business associates and clients on a daily basis!!!
What fun!

Tony Wright

11 years ago

Yes indeed you can buy a club that has lofts that can be varied. But the other little secret is that you cannot vary the loft of a variable loft driver without varying the face angle of the driver. You may be told that you can – but that is not true. So every time you add loft to one of these variable loft drivers you increase the face angle, every time you decrease loft of one of these drivers you decrease the face angle. Sorry about that but this is the truth.

Jr.

9 years ago

Was just now watching a video on Ping.com about their first adjustable driver (the Anser driver).
In their explanation, it clearly states: “Keep in mind that when you add loft, the face angle closes slightly, and when you subtract loft, the face angle opens slightly”. Direct quote.
This seems to be the opposite of what @Tony Wright has stated, unless I am misinterpreting his statement to Princeton’s comments.
If you go to Ping.com, just click onto the G25 as the driver you want to look at. Then click onto the video clip entitled “Anser Adjustable Driver”. It’s three minutes long.
It just makes sense. If you open the face, then the loft will be a tad lower when you square the face at impact. If you close the face, the loft will be a tad higher when you square the face at impact. And vice versa, depending on which feature you change.
We’re talking about impact position here. Sure, if you open a face, it may look like the loft is higher, but that’s not the case at square impact. At impact, the loft will be less if the face is squared up.

I hope that Princeton_TN forum post was written tongue in cheek, as I can’t imagine his buddies wanting to play with him too often otherwise :)

Lee

11 years ago

I had a Ping G20 driver which although I hit really well went way too high. I visited my local trusted fitter who confirmed my 10.5 club actually measured 14.5! Apparently their Tour van guys had also confirmed that Ping drivers are usually 2 degrees weak of spec. The club was sent back to Ping and they confirmed the club was within tolerance my views are unprintable as I’d seen it measured with my own eyes. Needless to say it has gone and I will never trust another off the shelf driver again. As mygolfspy recommend I worked with my fitter and now play an RBZ Tour 9 (measured at 9.2) standard stiff shaft cut to 44.5. (average launch 13, spin 2,650 – perfect).

David W

11 years ago

I could care less what it says on the club, I have two Pings G15 10.5 and G20 9.5. Fitted to both at different points in my swing evolution and bought them because they were what I was fitted for, not because of the number. If I needed a 12 then so be it if it brings my scores down.

Justin

11 years ago

+1 David!

BK in Wisconsin

11 years ago

Excellent analysis T. Amazing how many times does that “thing” between our ears get in the way of playing better golf.

GolfSpy Matt

11 years ago

I wrote this, not T. You can tell by the lack of grammatical mistakes. :)

-Matt

BK in Wisconsin

11 years ago

Dang! Sorry Matt!

I like the article even more now ;-)

Sailer

11 years ago

Of course those with a descending angle of attack at impact do need more loft. It is those with an ascending angle of attack at impact who may suffer due to hitting the ball too high and thus not getting any roll-out because the ball is descending at too steep of an angle.

GolfSpy Matt

11 years ago

If you’re talking about launch angle, your analysis is right on. The problem is that you’re ignoring spin. Players with negative AoA’s often need less loft to keep their spin down, and players with positive AoA’s often need more loft to get enough spin.

-Matt

Sailer

11 years ago

With the average swing speed for decent, recreational golfers being around 90mph, spin means very little when trying to maximize distance. Negative A of A golfers are always going to have more spin regardless of the loft they use. I have golfers who aveage 108mph swing speed with a negative A of A who need/use a 14* driver and still don’t hit it overly high but can’t argue with average 285 yd total distance. Low loft coupled with negative A of A…I haven’t seen that work well yet.

GolfSpy Matt

11 years ago

Perhaps we’re talking past each other because we’re A) ignoring impact location and B) ignoring the issue of “how much” the negative AoA is.

Ultimately, the point is: get fit and play what works for your game.

-Matt

Tony Wright

11 years ago

Actually those 90 mph golfers can often get 15 yards or more additional distance with the right driver loft and the right driver technique to get positive AofA and low spin – spin can be quite important to maximize their driving distance.

ryan

11 years ago

Sailer, Matt is right on but it is a little too technical for most golfers. The steeper your angle of approach the higher the trajectory… its physics. So no you would need less loft if you are descending into the ball and more loft if you are ascending into the ball. Also compression has the most to do with the amount of spin. A player who has a higher swing speed is going to compress the same ball more and create more spin than a player with a lower swing speed. In a nutshell do not get caught up in the loft, even more so now that every new driver has all the lofts in one!

Tony Wright

11 years ago

Ryan, actually based on Trackman analysis types of lofts needed for negative and positive AofA are the opposite of what you suggest, for optimizing distance. If you have negative AofA you will create less launch and will need more loft – and will most likely create more spin, less roll. And for positive AofA will create less launch and likely need less loft, and create less spin and more rollout.

ryan

11 years ago

if you hit down on the ball it will have far more backspin and much more penetrating trajectory than someone who hits the ball on their upswing. Why would you want more loft for more spin… this would create a balloon effect and not the penetrating trajectory I like. I don’t see how more loft and more spin is going to optimize anybody’s distance. Less loft with less spin is going to be a worm burner, is this what Trackman is considers optimized. Does Trackman do anything other than find optimum distance?

ryan

11 years ago

I have a friend who hits down on the ball (negative AoA) and plays a 8* driver and he hits it higher and farther than any competitive player I’ve played. His ball starts low and rises to what I consider a perfect trajectory, he also has 10.5 that he hits with the same swing and it somehow does not create the penetrating trajectory, instead it goes sky high with absolutely no roll… according to your description this is exactly the opposite of what a $50,000 unit recommends. Why is this?

Tony Wright

11 years ago

Hi Ryan, I appreciate your response. I cannot comment on what is happening with your friend because I cannot see his swing.

Here is an article that was published in iseekgolf, by Tom Wishon related to fitting for Angle of Attack. Analysis of Bubba Watson and Charles Howell driver performance. Their real specs for their drivers are noted. Charles has negative AoA, Bubba positive. See also the chart at the end of the article with probably driver lofts for different AoA. Hope this is of interest to you, all the best.

http://bit.ly/Vh2bjJ

Jr.

9 years ago

@Tony Wright: thanks for posting that link a few posts below that tells all about angle of attack and the recommended lofts (higher or lower).
http://www.iseekgolf.com/clubfittingandrepairs/7313-angle-of-attack-its-role-in-fitting?utm_source=December+15+2012+1&utm_campaign=November+2012+Newsletter&utm_medium=email
It really explains it all well, comparing Bubba Watson (upward angle of attack) and Charles Howell III, who swings down on the ball.
Bubba uses less loft to maximize distance, while Howell uses more loft to do so.
And these guys had their clubs expertly fitted to their swing types.
Anybody who is confused by all these back and forth arguments should read that article first.

Steve

11 years ago

I’ve always known this – that is why I test a club OUTSIDE before I buy. I want to see actual distance and flight characteristics before I fork out any cash. Awesome article!

Ice

11 years ago

Those guys are smart.

Gary

11 years ago

Actually this has been going on since the early 1990’s when Callaway came out with the Big Bertha (which was 4-5 degrees more lofted than what was stated on the club).

Joe Golfer

11 years ago

I recall the media exposure when that was first discovered with regard to the original Big Bertha drivers.
At that time, it was noted that the 9* drivers were actually around 11*.
That’s a two degree difference. Not four to five degrees, as that likely would have been too noticeable to the naked eye.

Gary

10 years ago

I know that it was 4 – 5 degrees because I measured them in my golf repair shop. And it wasn’t just one club or two…it was every Callaway Big Bertha. I talked to a Callaway VP at the request of a customer and was told that even though it “may” have measured 4 – 5 degrees more than stated on the club, it was “within spec.”

Jr.

9 years ago

It may well have been 4-5 degrees in your repair shop, and you may have come across several of those.
I would imagine that quality control was pretty lousy.
When the story first broke,the golf stories/magazines said that the lofts were two degrees higher than listed.
Perhaps 2 degrees higher was the intended target, and they ended up even more lofted than that. This article suggests that manufacturers have an intended target that’s higher than listed, and they still are 1 degree higher than that most of the time.

Seems like if it was 5 degrees like in your repair shop, that driver would have been a three wood loft, and the golfer would have caught on rather readily in both appearance and distance lost, yet at the time most golfers were really happy with that driver and their increased distance (until the stories came out and they found out their driver wasn’t really a 9 degree driver).
I would expect that somebody in media verified that stuff to verify. So it seems like 11 or 12 degrees would be far more likely.
Either way, it is pretty deceptive.
Most changes that they make are so that the ego of the golfer doesn’t hinder his actual talent level, as this article tends to state. Probably not a bad idea if not overdone, as most golfers, especially younger ones, tend to use too little loft and/or too stiff shafts.

Honman

11 years ago

My 7.5 degree 913D3 that I was fitted for is near enough 9 degrees. My 8.5 G25 is over 10(it is low spin relatively for such a high launch). My nike covert tour measured near enough spot in in all the loft options. I laughed when I was put into the 7.5 but at no point did i think the club looked low lofted. However I’ve now got two drivers that actually hit the ball forward(I’m in the uk) so I can’t complain.

Brian

11 years ago

I had a Ping that was nowhere near the suggested loft, guess it’s on purpose per the article. Funny…I don’t own that club anymore.

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