In Episode 1 of the MyGolfSpy Spy vs. Spy Podcast, Owner Adam Beach and Editor Tony Covey discuss the USGA Distance Report and the potential factors contributing to increased distance on tour.
Spoiler Alert: It’s not the ball.
Tony is the Editor of MyGolfSpy where his job is to bring fresh and innovative content to the site. In addition to his editorial responsibilities, he was instrumental in developing MyGolfSpy's data-driven testing methodologies and continues to sift through our data to find the insights that can help improve your game. Tony believes that golfers deserve to know what's real and what's not, and that means MyGolfSpy's equipment coverage must extend beyond the so-called facts as dictated by the same companies that created them. Most of all Tony believes in performance over hype and #PowerToThePlayer.
| Driver Titleist TSi3 | 3-Wood Titleist TSi2 13.5° |
| 5-Wood Titleist TSi2 18° | 7-Wood Titleist TSi2 21° |
| Irons (5-9) PXG 0311 GEN5 T | Wedges Vokey SM9 (46° F, 50° F, 54° D, 60° T) |
| Putter PXG Blackbird | Ball Titleist Pro V1x Left Dash |
6 years ago
Using scoring statistics is simply irrelevant. No golf course that the pros play regularly hasn’t been lengthened to protect par. If the Masters was played on the course that Arnie played the scores would be consistently in the low 60’s as they’d be wedging into the tough holes like 10 and 11.
At St Andrews, where there isn’t much room for manoeuver the course has been at the mercy of the players.
That said, I don’t think that turning back the clock is the answer. Set new limits on COR and keep the ball as it is.Make courses narrower and rough punitive provided that the members of the clubs are prepared to accept the months of prep and recovery to normal that this involves. Also accept that the pros play a different game in better conditions and on differently prepared greens.
6 years ago
I found the part around the 16 minute mark of the podcast to be interesting: talking about how short the fairways are such that the ball just rolls and rolls and rolls. I’ve only attended two different courses where pros were playing, and those fairways were like walking on living room carpet. I personally have never played on a course like that, though I play public courses and live fairly far north in the country, so those types of grasses wouldn’t fair well. It would be nice if they let that grass get a tad longer, but I’m not even sure if that’s possible what with the type of grass it is, as it’s not exactly something like Kentucky Bluegrass. You don’t even see a blade of grass, as it is just a smooth surface.
I hope this talk of juiced drivers is just supposition. I am not a fan of those who used steroids to improve their baseball performance, and I would hope most golfers have the integrity to play it straight with regard to illegally hot drivers. Perhaps the tour should test more drivers than just a clubhead out of a tour van’s drawer, as the podcast mentions.
6 years ago
A buddy of mine and I are going to the Canadian Open this year. Both of us are avid golfers but he’s never been to a tournament. I’ve been there several times and played there as well. It’s hard to describe how wonderful the fairways are there. The ball sits up like it’s on carpet and the material under the grass is a mixture of very light and loany earth mixed with sand. You could take a divot the size of a face cloth and it might not slow your club down…lol. Always played well when I played there for that reason. Greens were huge and more difficult than any I’ve played anywhere else but the ball sat up so nice you hit a lot of crisp irons and fairway woods into the greens.
6 years ago
Great listen. I never thought there was a distance problem–other than my own drives –and after listening to the very thoughtful reasoning in this podcast, I’m even more convinced there is no issue.
6 years ago
Every time the USGA gets stuck on an issue. It is found out later to be a non issue. Examples square grooves and anchored putters did not really change anything. I am not sure if they are trying to grow the game or bring it back to the turn of the century.
6 years ago
Probably slightly off topic but not so much. I have said for years I would love to see the PGA pros be required to play in an experimental tournament wherein the rules would be modified in one respect alone: OUT OF BOUNDS = MORE THAN 10 YARDS OFF FOR ANY FAIRWAY OR GREEN WHEN ON APPROACH OR TEE SHOT. Then lets see them swing for the fences.
6 years ago
The game is shrinking in size and some of you idiots want to make the game less fun and harder to post a respectable score. Unbelievable!
6 years ago
You’re not getting the big picture, equipment and balls have changed the game big time , how they’ve combat this was to make courses longer and trickier. This is not helping the avg Joe play better golf . If you think it’s the equipment making you enjoy the game better , then that’s what you believe, but i don’t believe in that theory.
6 years ago
Tiger Woods should make his own ball and call it escort and escorts xxx
6 years ago
quit golf take up bowling the balls are heavier and you have to change shoes
6 years ago
I didn’t listen to more then 3 mins of this before I turned it off and said idiot. How can you say there isn’t an issue? There is a serious problem, technology has made this game change how long courses have to be , just to challenge us now. Back in the 80’s tough courses were only 6400-6800 yards , today those yardages are to easy to play out . 7300-7600 is now the norm for a challenge, if I drop back a tee , it’s to darn easy . Something needs to change , ball or equipment
6 years ago
The average pro swingspeed in teh 80s was 105 mph. There are many players 15-20 mph in excess of that now. That’s 40-50 yards, or more.
How can one propose to penalize someone for their pure physical ability?
6 years ago
That the USGA is even considering this shows how out of touch they actually are. I hit the ball as far today as I ever have, which I am thankful for. Doesn’t mean that my scores are any lower.
6 years ago
We already have limits on what the balk can do and how much spring effect can be in the clubs. Those that hit the balk so far have done so because they have been able to maximize their swing speed through training, trackmsn and this knowing what the optimum shaft and club is for them plus they just swing harder.
The balk and equipment is better than what jack used but the stuff he used was better then what Bobby Jones used.
Just freeze it where it is and if they want to make it more penalizing for missing fsirways then do it. But my hats off anyone who can hit it long and straight. If they can they should be rewarded. If they it it off line they should be penalized. That is where the problem exists. Rory McElroy can hit it 359 down the middle and his opponent can hit it 350 off the fairway and still have a good shot at the green in most courses. Make hitting the fairway rewardful or vice versus. Leave our equipment alone. At age 66 with this equipment I can hit it far enough to compete with younger bombers who spray it. I hit it 250 and even further when fairways are firm. This is farther than I hit the balata ball and persimmon wood 30 years ago. I don’t want to go back. And won’t.
6 years ago
That’s the thing, they hit the ball straight (which takes skill), but the courses don’t really penalize them enough for being offline. I think today’s distance is an issue, but they could probably solve it by making the rough tougher, softening up the fairways, and narrowing the fairways significantly at the 300-yard marker on teeshots. I think being super-skilled at long driving is superceding other quality golf skills that the TV audience is missing because they just aren’t required at those distances.
6 years ago
Ball Go Far – or Not
In my view, the drama surrounding this issue fundamentally conflates itself into an argument about the progression of science and technology vs. a somewhat luddite opinion about bringing back “the good old days”. Well, why not just bring back the feathery ball and hickory shafts. It’s an exercise in circular logic.
Technological change won’t stop – and it’s subsequent effect on business, sport and frankly life in general will follow suit.
I agree with previous posters who’ve articulated the idea that the governing bodies should simply grow the rough, narrow the fairways and speed up tournament greens to U.S. Open speeds on a weekly basis. Problem solved.
Bifurcation of equipment for the game will never be capable of keeping up with the rate of technological change. It’s a fool’s errand -flat out.
6 years ago
This is the best response/summary I’ve heard. I think everyone needs to just read this and move on from this.
6 years ago
Yeah I shot an 18 yesterday roll the ball back
6 years ago
Leave my balls alone! and that’s all I have to say about that…
6 years ago
People dunk too much – let’s raise the basket height to 14 feet
You know out of respect for the intent of the game
6 years ago
… and use a peach basket again,
6 years ago
No, like you say in the podcast and I have been saying for a year. The fairways are shorter then the greens most of us play. They are getting 50 to 100 yards of roll. My ball plugs in the fairway.
6 years ago
Did Usain Bolt run too fast? Solution? More head wind!!
6 years ago
Limit the balls to 3 piece. Speaking will b more difficult.
6 years ago
Is the pod going to be available on Apple podcast app?
6 years ago
Brad, i think he just posted it up there. 20 minutes.
6 years ago
Limit the balls to 3 piece. Shotmaking will more difficult.
6 years ago
This is not about the game, it is about the money. Golf companies make their money off the average golfers, and use the professional ranks as advertisement. Making money should not be the criteria for whether rule changes are made, or not.
I think we can learn a lot from pro-baseball. Pro rules are different than amateur rules as far as equipment is concerned. Pros must use wooden bats vs metal bats. Metal bats create too much ball speed that create two unacceptable outcomes. One; it put pitchers in an extremely dangerous position, because they cannot react fast enough to the increase in the ball speed of a line drive hit right back at the mound, and two; metal bats would turn every park into a homer derby taking the integrity of each ball park out the window.
Solution; the baseball remains constant, and the bats remain wooden.
Pro golf should follow the same line of thought as baseball to maintain the integrity of the game. Amateurs can use basically whatever equipment they want based on their associations they play, while pros must adhere to more strict rules that require the use of real wood woods with metal shafts, and a compression ball that matches the era before the transition to metal woods and new balls.
Those athletes that want to compete at a higher level and win would have to gain an advantage through hard work and the development of their talent rather than gaining an advantage through advancements in equipment.
In todays pro game long iron play has been eliminated from the discussion. What will be next, and is that what the game needs?
6 years ago
I respect that position but your reference to the equipment differences is in only one sport — baseball. 18-inch rims at 10 feet for all basketball; 8’x24′ goals for soccer; I could go on. Sure, there are some differences based on ages in some sports played at the recreational level (hardness or size of the baseball or softball used, as an example). I’m not so sure that baseball uses wood bats more for tradition than speed of the line drives….and who doesn’t want more home runs?
Instead of dropping ball speed for pros maybe the opposite is the answer…juice the ball for recreational use; make the hole bigger; allow mulligans; one and on. If they start messing with two sets of rules what is the value of a the handicap system?
6 years ago
I didn’t proof read the above. Of course I meant ball not balk and some other words were changed by spell check and I hope you can tell what they are supposed to be.
6 years ago
Stop the technology in its tracks at this time! No one mfg. can make any new club that is over, or above any club on the market right now with any distance gained.
6 years ago
Dennis, you have it backwards. Keep the equipment for the tour pros where it’s at. But allow golf gear (and balls) for the masses (that’s us) to be designed as the golf manufacturing companies desire. Unleash their research & development departments to be entrepreneurial and make clubs and balls that will go further and straighter. There are reasons for restricting the pros; but not the amateurs among us. Let the gear be as good as it can be.
6 years ago
There are reasons to keep one set of rules across all levels of golf — the handicap system. Sure, people sandbag all the time but at least one set of rules levels things for everyone.
I guess it would be fun to break par because my equipment is juiced but then how do I compete with the other guy who had juiced equipment too and with a lower handicap. The cycle is endless. Go practice and develop a better swing rather than just buy your score through technology.
6 years ago
It would be nice to allow “any” improvement of equipment, but what the local fallout? Our group @Chicapee Woods in Gainesville, Ga ranges from 28-80 w/ handicaps always being ?questioned?. Likely, nowhere else in Ga, the home of the Masters, nor anywhere else in the USA, would affect the “fair” adjudication monetary distribution of “the game” be affected by something unimportant as “approved” equipment(“I’ve got this ball….”). Now I’ve recently won “The Lottery” & have no constriction as to affording “helpful” equipment. I don’t think that my group compadres would mind my newly affordable “helpful” advantage, do you?? If there will be clearly defined rules adjudicated between “Pro” & “Amateur”, OK. However, why have “new” separate rules??? The game is just that, a game, & doesn’t need some “FEDERALLY GOVERNMENTAL” approved set of “NEW” rules. We have historically developed rules that continue to set apart “The Game” from any other game. Just like in “Poker”, if you declare a temporary set of rules, that’s OK, it’s just a set of rules, hopefully, overlayed upon the established rules. Sandy’s, Birdie’s, closest or longest, please simply declare intention for acceptance. God, I love this game. Please try to leave it alone……Jim…….ONE SET OF RULES!!!…….
6 years ago
Adam & Tony, great session and thoroughly enjoyed the discussion. Completely agree that the ball is not the problem, perhaps the USGA is actually the problem.
Certainly like the idea of growing the fairway grass longer and testing the actual clubs the players are using. Before a round begins or after each round random players are selected to test there clubs. Then well see just how much integrity the players and manufactures actually have.
What happened to the balls getting tested at the end of each rounds, do they still do that? If they do resort to testing players actual clubs from the bag, will they do it with all players or try to protect the top ranked players.
I love and respect Jack the GOAT, however I disagree with his thoughts that the ball is the main reason for slow play. How about just plain and outright slow play is the main cause for slow play. What happened to the shot clock, limit the amount of input the caddie has with the player. Too many sets of eyes and brains on the players ball. Love to see the pros play without a caddie and lets see how they get along.
6 years ago
I care little how slow the pros play. I use the pvr to control the time it takes to watch the tournament . I am concerned about the group of double digit handicapers in front of me who play 6500 yrds and spend time looking for the errent 3 wood shots that they require on every par 4.eg Our walking group of 4 60-79 year olds were waiting on 4 guys in carts wandering around in the woods on every hole. Longer ball or shorter couses will make the game more enjoyable for all. This is my concern. The golf clubs might make more money if we could all get to the bar 3.5 hrs after teeing off rather than 4.5 + hrs. Might be able to have more groups playing as well.
6 years ago
Maybe that slow foursome in front of you should get to the bar 3.5 hours before their round.
6 years ago
Just plant some trees where wild drives will not be rewarded and straight drives will be. Having said that, don’t make it do narrow that everyone just hits to the same layup spot in every hole. I hate nothing more than playing a hold that will not reward a long drive down the muddle and forces everyone to just lay up.
6 years ago
Why don’t they simply make the pro stops more difficult? US Open rough, narrow the fairways, leave the fairways a bit longer. Problem solved. Why are all of these PGA events cutting fairways to allow massive rollouts and then complaining the ball is going too far? This is ridiculous.
6 years ago
Exactly! You are correct sir!
6 years ago
I’ll second that… just stop cutting the fairway at 300 yds and leave 10″ of rough… Don’t start mowing again for another 60 yds. When the pros leave, get the mowers back out.
6 years ago
Once again, as with its wedge ruling a few years ago, the USGA seems intent on making golf more difficult for the vast majority of golfers, most of whom can’t break 100. Perfect recipe for driving more people away from the game. We are NOT playing the same game as Dustin Johnson. The USGA needs to stop pretending that we are. Its rulings should make our game easier and faster to play. If Nicklaus, Woods and others want to limit the performance of the top hundreth-percent of players, they should persuade the professional tours to adopt strategies to do so.
6 years ago
Rolling back the ball for the amateur would be a classical mistake. The game is just not that easy. How would adopting new rules that would make it that much harder help “grow the game”?
6 years ago
I really don’t understand the unwillingness of the PGA to test equipment out of the players bags…every other sport has zero problems doing equipment testing and handing out public fines or suspensions. Also what is the PGA’s stance on steroid and drug use? Stop looking at the ball and start looking at clubs and the person swinging them.
6 years ago
There you go. And just so the pros don’t get in an embarrassing situation, tell them 1 year ahead of time that testing will be done on equipment after the rounds. That’ll give them some time to adjust to the new reality
6 years ago
Are you going to post this on Itunes? That is my download podcast location of choice.
thanks and keep up the great work
6 years ago
My interest is in the numbers provided from the amateur game, the suggestion that virtually no yardage gains have been made in 20 yrs is ridiculous, this information was based on just 1350 shots in 2017 which is far too small a sample to publish any real findings and for that reason has no credibility and should have been excluded from the report.
6 years ago
Leave the ball alone folks….I have a 75 mph swing speed and need all the help I need.
6 years ago
I’d like to see some stats on it, but there’s got to be a point where you compress the ball or you don’t. I’d bet at 75mph there’s not going to be a lot of difference one way or the other, but that’s just my unproven opinion.
6 years ago
Having played on a few courses just before a pro event I totally agree with the sentiment about mowing the fairways and rough a fraction longer.
6 years ago
The PGA does a lot more to get low scores such as filling sand in bunkers so there is never a downhill lie in a bunker when hitting toward the hole, not watering the fairways to increase roll and total distance of drives, etc. They do things that would kill the grass if it was done week after week.
6 years ago
This is great guys. Are you going to be adding a RSS feed from soundcloud so I can auto DL these when they are posted?
6 years ago
Another important point to make where these distance increases come into play: There is so much more optimization taking place. With Trackman, GCQuad and other monitors, we’re able to optimize and fit for the right clubs and even which ball is best for you. Exercises and training aids are huge with the PGA now. Phil has been working with the clubhead speed trainers to increase his distance back up to what it was when he was younger. I could go on.
6 years ago
Swing speed has gone up 10 miles an hour. That makes a large difference. But the truth is its boring to watch, par 5s have become par 4s, dog legs that made courses hard and forced players to shape shots around them and hit long irons are no longer relevant. now players hit high shots over the dog legs and a wedge in. Roll back the balls for pros only. This being said I do not think the average golfer believes that any ball will allow them to gain enough yardage to hit it like a pro so it does not matter to the average golfer.
6 years ago
Terrible metaphor….but annually the golf industry needs a bump in sales for balls and clubs.
Kind of like gun sales. If they come for your 20% longer clubs you’re going to go out and buy more.
Very lame and very deceptive.
6 years ago
Hot juiced heads in the drawers huh? Sounds like it’s more about equipment not being regulated and airport fast fairways for rollouts. Why not make some of those drivers legal for senior golfers? They would sell like hot cakes!
6 years ago
Very interesting to listen to your opinions. As far as I’m concerned amateur recreational golfers (which account for a huge amount of $ in the golf industry) there is absolutely no reason to roll back the ball. Our distance gains in minimal. You cannot punish 99% of the golfers because 1% of golfers notice huge gains in distance. I think the game has evolved & now the course have to evolve with it. Shouldn’t be that hard to adjust courses to combat alleged distance gains.
6 years ago
I agree, if the pro golfers shoot 54 then they were simply that much better than we are. You don’t see basketball making the floor slippery to slow the pros down, or make the rim firmer. They claim we are all playing the same game by the same rules but that is completely false. Our fairways are rarely rock hard and give me 70+ yds of roll. The bunkers I play out of are not top dressed with perfect sand raked perfectly smooth. Our greens are not rolled twice so they are so smooth and slick if you start a 20′ putt on line it goes in.
6 years ago
Exactly, make the courses more difficult in the one week the PGA is there. Why don’t the courses do this? Probably because everyone loves seeing gigantic drives. USGA is fishing for an excuse on this one and their sites have fallen on the ball. Why not ban them from exercising and launch monitors too? That’s what has really helped spur distance in my opinion!
6 years ago
It is not just the PGA (but that said getting TV ratings is)..the equipment companies are not about to allow Pros to shoot par. no one is paying $500 for a driver if the Pros only hit it 260 yards and shoot par……
6 years ago
I think that you just made a prima facie case for having a ball for Tour players that is rolled back and leave the ball alone for everyone else. Tour players have gained length amateurs have not. A tour ball that has certain requirements and can be made and sold by any ball company who sells a tour ball that meets those requirements. Just like in college football. There is no single “official” football, all brands must meet certain requirements. Sorry golf ball makers, this is all about money and not giving 2 cents that many course are no longer relevant for national championships AND watching pros hit drivers and wedges into 500 yard par 5’s is boring. The average golfer has long since ceased to believe that any ball that Dustin, Phil, Rory or anyone else on Tour plays is going to make their drives go any further
6 years ago
Just clarifying. You are in favor of a rolled back tour ball because the ball has made courses no longer relevant and because Amateurs have not gained any length??
6 years ago
Reading that just blew my mind too
6 years ago
Because if you actually look at the report the distance gain since 2003 among amateurs actually mirrors the gains seen on the PGA Tour. Remember guys on Tour are elite for a reason. There is no reason to try to make them not elite by changing the ball. Course setup and weather conditions can far better effect distance than changing the golf ball would. Also shorter courses are not irrelevant. Merion is very short by current tour standards and produced a winning score of +1
6 years ago
All the ball hoopla is just a bunch of crap. Just grow the rough and harden the greens! You don’t need to lengthen anything.
6 years ago
Making the greens too hard gets rid of skill when hitting approach shots. It would become dumb luck if they got close to the hole. That isn’t right. However, I agree on growing the rough and watering the fairways to reduce roll.
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C. Leder
6 years ago
Tony, you made a reference a while back regarding the old original 460 Cleveland Launcher having a hot face.
That made me take notice, since I have a friend who still uses that driver because of the unusual distance he gets. My friends and I tell him regularly that the club must have have a hot face. He just laughs, no denials.
I’m wondering how you came to suspect that too about the old Launcher. It also raises the question of whether the current testing methods may let some drivers slip through with illegal COR’s.