The Best Irons Money Can Buy – (Part II)
Irons

The Best Irons Money Can Buy – (Part II)

The Best Irons Money Can Buy – (Part II)

Cost (vs) Value

(Written By: GolfSpy T) In Part 1 of this 2-part series I suggested that Miura irons are the absolute best your money can buy. A good bit of that determination was based on the quality, craftsmanship, and technical perfection inherent to every Miura iron. And while there has been much debate (see the comments on the original) as to whether or not Miura feels, or even performs better than any other iron (I say they do) there have been few if any who have suggested that Miura quality is anything less than advertised.

Questions for Miura

One reader who wasn’t completely willing to take us at our word was hoping to get some more specific details on the materials Miura uses, their manufacturing process, and what separates their hand-grinding from the rest of the industry. I took Kevin’s questions to Miura President, Adam Barr. So before we get to the eye-candy, here are those questions along with Mr. Barr’s responses.

  • What kind of steel is Miura’s “higher quality” steel? Their website doesn’t give any material details other than “low-carbon” or “mild”.

    Adam Barr: The actual formula of the steel is proprietary, but suffice to say it’s the best mild steel that can be found. Miura-san grew up in this region, the steelmaking center of Japan, and is very well acquainted with all the sources of superior steel.

  • What is spin-welding? Why is it better than a single-piece forging? I can see potential advantages of grind the hosel and body separately, but welding processes generally add variability.

    Adam Barr: Spin-welding, sometimes also called spin-forging, is a process unique to Miura that ensures a clubhead with uniform, fine grain — no little voids or “bubbles” to interfere with the solid feel and the purity of the strike. The process starts with the clubhead, which is forged in the toe-to-heel portion only. Miura-san has found that when you forge in one piece, including the hosel, the process stretches the grain of the steel unnaturally upwards into the hosel, resulting in those voids you don’t want. Forging toe-to-heel compresses the grain: the analogy is that the grain is more like a jar of sand instead of a jar of marbles. Then the hosel piece, also forged with consistent, fine grain, can be attached by spin-forging. A special machine spins the hosel piece at very high speed against the place on the clubhead where it should be attached. The friction creates enough heat to make a solid weld. Once finished, the weld scarf is gone and the club looks and operates as one piece.

Video Process:

  • How is their hand grinding any different than the rest of the industry?

    Adam Barr: Quite simply, it’s the people who are doing the grinding: Miura-san, his son Yoshitaka-san (whom Miura-san trained), and the very small cadre of others Miura-san has trained to do this kind of highly specialized work. (You can see some of this in the video as well.) Miura-san’s five decades of experience comes through his hands, and continues in the next generation. Grinding really is industrial art, and Miura-san has raised it to a very high level.

Miura Quality is but One Piece

While the need to start with a quality head like Miura’s cannot be understated, the head is but one of the pieces necessary to create the perfect golf club. While many often assume that one piece is more important than another, when it comes to fitting, and building a set of clubs, everything matters. My Miura fitter/builder Josh Chervokas explains:

“I find most consumers do not understand how many variables there are when fitting how each one is important. I will often hear customers says “Isn’t the shaft the most important part?” or “I heard the clubhead is most important” or “Can’t we just set up my new set the same as my old and expect it to perform the same?”. In reality everything has an effect. We cannot take the clubhead or shaft or setup out of context. To properly fit we must maximize the performance of each of these elements and examine how they react together. Only then can we get a true picture of performance.”

After looking at the numbers from my fitting session, Josh determined that for me, the ideal setup, the one that would maximize my performance was Miura’s CB-501 heads paired with KBS C-Taper shafts. After testing several combinations it was clear to Josh that I would achieve the most consistently ideal launch and spin conditions with this pairing.  As you may recall from part I, I was admittedly a bit disappointed that a set of blades wasn’t exactly the best fit for me, but I couldn’t have been happier to learn that we’d be putting C-Tapers (stiff +) in my new irons.

Many of you are familiar with the KBS Tour shaft. They’ve quickly become among the most popular on the market today and have made their way into many OEM’s “stock” lineup. Their new C-Taper is unquestionably the current “it” shaft for irons (and wedges). With a low glare, satin chrome finish (they look bead-blasted) and stepless design they could easily be mistaken for graphite. You simply won’t find a better looking iron shaft. Of course it doesn’t hurt that they offer exceptional feel.

While we’re all tempted to buy the latest and greatest, or simply what looks the coolest, as much as I love them, the C-Taper is not a one-shaft fits all offering. They are designed for quick tempo players looking for a lower launch and less spin. As I learned during my fitting, that pretty much describes me perfectly. I’m actually one of the lucky ones for whom the KBS C-Taper offers an ideal fit. How sweet is that?

Have it Your Way

With the business of fitting sorted out, Josh and I got to work on a plan to “pimp out” my new sticks. We knew what heads, we knew what shafts, and we even knew what grips (I’ve become an IOmic snob) we’d be using. We just needed to sort out a few frivolous, yet completely awesome details.

Now working with a custom builder affords one some unique customization opportunities you simply won’t find in any OEM’s catalog. Of course being able to have it your way is only one small benefit of working with a skilled builder. When you work with someone like Josh Chervokas what you get is an obsessive eye for precision and detail that can only be achieved by those working at a macro level. Indeed, when it comes to specifications, and just plain getting it right, Josh’s own tolerances far exceed industry standards. He says:

“In the same way that Miura’s tolerances are tighter than the OEMs, My tolerances when building are also tighter. Shafts are all weighted and sorted into matched sets. Most OEMS have a +/-1 degree tolerance for loft and lie. I keep mine to 1/4 degree. I also measure each club carefully with a lie angle specific ruler when cutting to length. Swingweighting is done with the specific grip chosen as well as with the exact amount of tape layers we will be using”.

Getting the Shaft

While making sure swingweights match, and lengths are correct certainly matters, the single most significant aspect of what Josh does is the weighting and sorting of shafts. For no other aspect of the club have we found so little continuity from the big OEMs. The lack of consistency, which often involves a set of irons that span multiple flexes, occurs for a couple of reasons.

  • There is no industry standard for flex. While most generally agree that the range between flexes is 10-12 cycles per minute, very few if any agree on where those ranges begin and end. While most will share their tolerances for lie, loft, and length, you won’t find a single OEM that publishes tolerances for shaft flex. Why is that?
  • Without exception, the OEMs that operate on a large scale rely on the shaft manufactures to do the sorting for them. The thing is, shaft manufacturers have tolerances too, but big OEMs pay little or no attention to variances in weight or flex from one shaft to the next. As a result, it’s anything but uncommon for two clubs in any given set to be weighted differently, or to fall outside the boundaries of  the stated flex.  We’ve seen iron sets labeled stiff that contained clubs in the senior range. And while that’s perhaps the most extreme example, we’ve seen several sets of “stiff” flex irons that contained individual irons that fell within ranges we would define as regular, stiff, and x-stiff . Again, this is a single set of irons I’m talking about. One set, 3 flexes. It happens more often than you might think.

When you work with a builder who maintains his own shaft inventory, the finished product (especially where shaft consistency is concerned) looks almost nothing like what you get when you place a “custom” order with a big OEM – and that’s a good thing.

“Pimp” Style

While getting a higher-quality finished product is no doubt the best reason to work with a custom fitter and builder, one of the added perks is that your clubs can be built to suite your individual style, no matter how outlandish it may be. While I’m sure there will be plenty who will look at my set and shake their heads, I wanted each and every club to look unique. This meant different colored grips, different colored ferrules, and even different color paintfill on each and every one. While I know not all will approve of what Josh and I came up with, that’s the beauty of customization. Your clubs can be whatever suits your eye. There’s no need for the builder to create a design and color scheme with mass-market appeal.

Just because Miura irons themselves are traditional in design, there’s no reason why your Miura’s can’t deviate (or radically depart) from that tradition.

Having said that, I did wonder what Miura-San would think of clubs like mine, and Josh’s other designs that don’t quite match the Miura image. As it turns out, while the bright ferrules and paintfill isn’t something that Mr. Miura does himself, he “is fine with what Josh does if it is helpful to his customers”. While I won’t suggest the bright grips, and everything else Josh did with my clubs benefits my game in any way whatsoever (unless you’re willing to believe that orange grips are more accurate than black ones), I’m thrilled to have a set of irons that reflects my own colorful style.

It’s not the People, it’s the Grass

Miura-San’s response to my customization question got me further thinking about the challenges of designing clubs for two very different markets. Japanese and American culture are very different, and so I had assumed that each country’s golfers would have styles as distinct as those cultures. While there are no doubt products that appeal to one market more than another, for Miura, like most everything else, the heart of the issue lies not with marketing, but rather the technical challenges in accounting for the differences in something as basic as the grass on which we play the game.

Adam Barr explains:

It’s not so much the consumers who are different, but the golf challenges they encounter. Course conditions and management tend to be different in Japan. The turf can be firmer in places, and golfers may find that they need a different sole configuration to get the best turf interaction. And within that group of golfers, there may be preferences as to how to get the golf swing accomplished, plus the natural physical distinctions between people — all this has to be taken into account. Conversely, in the U.S., conditions can vary widely because there’s so much more land to consider. Texas isn’t Oregon isn’t New York, and they all have their seasons. So deep consideration is necessary when designing for one place or the other.

The basic challenge of the game is, of course, the same. But the ground under our feet may not be. It’s not necessarily difficult to create clubs with worldwide appeal. It just takes some of that patience discussed above.

Custom CB-501s on the Course

I had my first opportunity to put my irons to the test on some of that New York sod Adam was talking about this last weekend. While there was a part of me that thought about leaving them on the shelf to keep them pristine a bit longer, golf clubs, even the most beautiful (and loudest) of designs are meant to be played. And while it’s evidence of nothing, I’m happy to report that I shot my lowest round (by two strokes) of the season. Perhaps it was dumb luck. Perhaps there was a true performance gain from the switch to C-Tapers. Perhaps it’s a simple as being content and thoroughly enjoying playing a round of golf with irons that are distinctly mine (even if it means giggling like a school girl each time a different colored grip came out of the bag).

Part of me wants to tell you that when you get fit for a custom set of Miura irons you’ll likely find yourself with the last set of clubs you’ll ever want. Unfortunately I don’t think I can honestly tell you that. What I can say is that my completely custom CB-501s will be the last set of cavity backs I game until they wear out, but…

If anything, owning a set of Miura irons fit for and built exclusively for me has left me dreaming about how much fun I could have customizing a set of the Limited Edition Black Blades (seriously…I already have ferrules and paintfiill picked out. I might be developing an “issue” or “condition” of sorts), or possibly Baby Blades. Those will likely have to wait, but one of the last things I said to Josh before I left the New York Golf Center on that rainy Thursday afternoon was “I’ll come back in a couple of years and you can fit me for some Miura blades”. Maybe it’s what he said, or maybe it’s just what I want to remember, but I’m fairly certain he said “It’s a deal“. Even if was all in my head, I’m holding Josh to it.

If you happened to miss Part 1? // Click Here!

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Tony Covey

Tony Covey

Tony Covey

Tony is the Editor of MyGolfSpy where his job is to bring fresh and innovative content to the site. In addition to his editorial responsibilities, he was instrumental in developing MyGolfSpy's data-driven testing methodologies and continues to sift through our data to find the insights that can help improve your game. Tony believes that golfers deserve to know what's real and what's not, and that means MyGolfSpy's equipment coverage must extend beyond the so-called facts as dictated by the same companies that created them. Most of all Tony believes in performance over hype and #PowerToThePlayer.

Tony Covey

Tony Covey

Tony Covey





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      Plyork

      4 years ago

      Was reading all the articles about equipment and new things coming out and how it improves play etc. but the biggest problem that you hardly hear about is the damn price of equipment!! That’s the biggest problem with golf and getting new people involved. Average joe should be able to go and buy good equipment to start out with. Not some old wore out junk that makes it seem impossible to play the game of golf. A three year old driver that’s been smashed a few hundred times or more cost 250 + average. And a decent set of irons (used) cost around 400 plus! Then comes the putter for 100 , balls 35-45 dozen, oh and hybrids , lol. So for a 1000 bucks you might have what u need to get started with used clubs! I’m sure some folks will laugh and make comments about get another hobby if u can’t afford it or some other snobby bullshit comment which is the other reason people won’t try Golf It’s the spoiled and privileged ass holes that talk down to or about regular people trying to play. Always behind their backs ofcourse! Money can’t buy the balls they need to keep from talking behind the back of people! But anyway just thought I’d throw that out there. I play all the time and love the game, but that’s the biggest problem about folks wanting to try but can’t or won’t. Stop making club heads and shafts in china and shipping them to Mexico for assembly then across the country to sell them for 550-600 for a driver that cost 65-70 to make and ship back here. Well that’s off my chest! Lol.

      Reply

      Ken Lines

      9 years ago

      Look back at Mike Weir’s hand ground Hogan irons. Amazing. After he won the Masters, he was playing with some NHL players and they hid his clubs and gave him a set of whatever.

      Reply

      Bigleftygolfer

      10 years ago

      After reading through this thread I have heard a rumor that mr miura actually grinds many of the name brand clubs for the tour players in the big show. I was a member of various mini tours myself and have heard this rumor from different people many times. I have no idea if it is true but if it is I think you can draw a conclusion that miura’s attention to detail and customization is better than most if not the best. One thing I forgot to add on my last post is these clubs are much heavier than my nak’s or mizzys with my setup they where e1 in weight it was very noticeable but actually favored my game again this was intentional by my fitter but I assume the heads also had something to do with the overall jump in weight vs tour van mp68’s for what it is worth…

      Reply

      Bigleftygolfer

      10 years ago

      I have had my miura LH tournament blades with KBS silver satin ctapers matched with white ferrules and white iomic midsized grips with the extra wraps aka white lightning for almost three years now I must say I got a deal on the heads for $600 used and immediately took the heads to my expert club fitter (he was on a PGA van for years) where he told me to put in the “new” c tapers as the low launch and reduced spin would be best for my really high ball flight. After one round I immediately put my mp 68’s and nak’s on the shelf! You can’t describe what it feels like to hit these clubs. I am actually afraid to buy a new set of Maura’s as I am afraid I have some kind of magical set that can’t be replicated. I do get my clubs re adjusted every year along with a flo check of all my shafts as they can degrade. I still play near scratch but I believe I would be better with a miura driving iron as my driver can curse me at times and my three wood gives me fits of frivolity off the tee… I just had to comment to this article as I have a similar setup and I love them so much I would sleep with them at night if my wife would let me! :-)

      Reply

      Jayden Lawson

      10 years ago

      Loved the detailed article, and your unique colour choices! I was already sold on Miura, but the splash of custom colour has really got me considering some exciting colour pallets!

      Reply

      Tiger Wu

      10 years ago

      Just sold my Mizuno MP59 and switched to CB 501. Not regret at all IMHO!

      Reply

      golf Indonesia

      11 years ago

      Good article and nicely presented!

      The article intriguing so as to get me to pay a visit a local Miura’s dealer &
      custom fitter Top Golf in Jakarta and try to see any differences in “THE FEEL”
      (based on my own personal experience) compared to that of Epon’s Endo Golf.

      Please note that key terminology being used here is personal experience.

      As the discussions about “the best iron set” in my humble opinion would
      relate to one’s personal experience as a mixed result of a number of variables
      that come to play including:
      the iron set (maferials used, techology appllied, strict quality control etc)
      the ultimate user: diferences occur in physical appereance such as height so on
      as well as diiferences in golf skills / h’cap caused by the motivation of a person
      that is more frequent practice translates to better h’cap

      To those who belive that acquiring a custom fitted golf set costing > USD 1K are nuts,
      it is them who are radiculed themselves by ignoring the variables stated above and
      keep lying to themselves by buying mass market Golf set (brands) are sufficient
      by citing the law of diminishing of marginal utility (the more you pay for a thing
      does not commensuratey justified with the benefit received), oh please··········

      if you enjoy a brand and happy with their iron set, so be it & never regret it
      or even care for others may have to say about it.

      The closest analogy is just like comparing a set of hi-fi audio:
      Go buy audio set of Yamaha, Sony, Harman Kardon’s, in my personal
      experience, their musical reproducations are mediocre compared to those of
      Mark Levinson’s, Krell’s etc costing > USD 2 K / piece. plz try it out, you’ll know
      are the latter still made in the US? I have no firm info.

      The similar logical thinking applies to the selection of iron set from major brands
      if you happy with Mizzi, Titliest etc so be it. But please be fair to at least have
      an experience with Miura, Epon etc before making any STRONG verdict·········· ;-)

      Summary: eventually, what makes you more enjoy golf that counts regardless
      the amount of money spent on iron set nor how expensive golf course
      you are registered with.

      my 2 cents. lets try some golf courses in Indonesia, the fees are more reasonable,
      compared to the beutiful scenery we get——— :-)

      Reply

      Kevin Mc

      12 years ago

      A couple of months ago I purchased a set of Miura CB 501s from Josh at NY Golf Center. I came across this article after I had already purchased my set. I found it very funny that I essentially purchased the same set of clubs as the author of this article. During my fitting, Josh also recommended the KBS Tour C Taper Plus shafts for me. I also had my set pimped out with Orange Iomic grips, blue/orange ferrules and the lettering painted blue and orange. They look amazing and I have people drooling over them every time I play a round. Previously I was playing Mizuno MP 68’s with Project X 6.5 shafts. While I love the Mizuno’s and feel they are great clubs, the Miura’s are in a class of their own. These are by far the softest forged club I have ever hit. They allow for as much playability as blade, yet provide the forgiveness of a CB. All said and done I dropped about $2,500 on these. But they are worth every penny. No one else these clubs with this paint scheme. They are truly one of a kind and the best clubs I have ever played.

      Reply

      J Lim

      12 years ago

      Great articles. I have to agree with some of the analogies about fine timepieces and automobiles. Will it make you a great golfer? Not necessarily. I’ve drooled over the Miura clubs for a few years. Missed an opportunity to meet Miura-san when he came to Michigan…THAT would have been cool. Considering getting fit next season for a set. I don’t think this will make make you look like a tool that has expensive clubs and can’t play. I think it will make you look like a discerning golfer. I currently play the Mizuno MP-57’s and love them. I see the Miura as an UPGRADE!

      Reply

      Lee Porter

      12 years ago

      Great article and fantastic review. I’m in agreement with this. If you’re looking for custom fit Miuras in the UK I can offer a custom fit club fitting.

      Reply

      Paul

      12 years ago

      I cannot believe how worked up the various posters are in relation to the cost of the Miura irons are versus off the rack sets. Who cares what the cost is or what sets are played. If one set was so superior in performance then I believe golf pros around the world would be using that set. I believe Tiger could win using Costco clubs but he plays Nike and makes millions doing so. Same with golf balls. I hit a Titleist Pro V1X the same distance as I do a Top Flight but play the Pro V1X because I like the Titleist name and red numbers on the ball. I drive an Acura TL only because it costs less to buy and service than a Mercedes S500 which I would buy if money were no question. As far as golf clubs go I have Mizuno MP 14s, 28s and 62s; Ping S56’s; Titleist forged CB’s and am currently playing Miura 1957 Baby Blades. My handicap is 14 and I love the clubs. My putter is an Answer JAS. My woods are a Titleist 910 D2 9 1/2 degree driver, 15 degree 3 wood, 18 degree 5 wood and 910 24 degree hybrid. If all of this makes some people unhappy then so what. I feel good driving in my car and hitting golf balls with my clubs. They won’t make me a scratch golfer but I’m playing because I love the game, love the looks and feel of the clubs and am out to have fun with my friends. My handicap has remained the same but I hope it drops soon as I recently took an Aimpoint putting class. Even if it does not I will still play, give my friends a ration as we play and settle all bets at the end of the round.

      Reply

      Jack

      12 years ago

      I was fortunate enough to find a Miura dealer nearby and purchased a set of tournament irons with the NS 950 shafts. Since then, I have shot the lowest round ever, (76) and had a hole in one. The consistency throughout the set is amazing. I had never had any success with the lower number irons, but now hit my 4 iron with the same accuracy as my nine iron. You owe it to yourself, if you are serious abou the game, to try the Miuras.

      Reply

      dan aa

      12 years ago

      you guys accually think all the miuras sold are meticullasly made BS, to make that many miuras they hve to be mass produced so wake up everyone their not made like they use to be I know this for a fact. Besides their dense and hard period.

      Reply

      RobP

      11 years ago

      Blah Blah Blah. Your facts are a load of crap.

      Reply

      njoynlife

      12 years ago

      Lots of great comments. One now from a techno/science guy. I have been involved in both technology and golf for years. I have been involved in controversial topics in several fields that mirror this one in style and substance. One example is the vacuum tube vs solid state controversy in audio. Another one: Is there an objective, measurable difference between running on asphalt vs concrete? Only objective, double blind testing can settle such arguments, though many involved will never be convinced.

      As an avid golfer with a limited budget, I want to know how much I must spend before I get diminishing returns on my golf investment. Is a variation of a half point in swing weight noticeable? How about a quarter point? Is it noticeable to everyone equally or does noticeability vary with the handicap or individual? Because swinging the club is a dynamic movement, would we be better served using moment of inertia instead of swing weighting? Should we be choosing (and more to the point, paying for) a 1 gram tolerance in clubhead or shaft weight?

      These are just suggestive (and subjective?) of what we could ask. There are other, probably more germane, questions that could be asked. And maybe there are better places to ask them. But I do think that discussions about accuracy of specifications must have an accompanying context else it is near useless. To illustrate, ask yourself how much it would be worth for the clubmaker to insure your new shafts are matched to within 0.1 CPM? Would your answer change if we have data indicating that anything below 0.7 CPM cannot be felt, nor does it affect performance? All of these things cost money to engineer and build into our golf clubs. I would like to think that we are moving to a point where we can choose wisely by spending on what matters. In the end we cannot quantify the worth of feel, beauty, or craftsmanship, and we may choose to allocate our money there. But on pure performance it is worth the effort.

      I applaud MyGolfSpy for being at the forefront of equipment testing. Maybe the future will bring testing that attempts to put context to our numbers.

      Cheers!

      Reply

      Justin

      12 years ago

      For the average golfer, and this is from multiple club fitters (Wishon and Summitt, to name two) ittakes 3 swing weight points to notice a difference. That’s about 6g in the head, 27g in the shaft, 15g in the grip, or a combination of the three. Tiger Woods has been reported to notice 2 feathers worth of weight difference in a golf ball (per Golf magazine), and Nick Faldo has felt a half point of swing weight difference (per Jeff Sheets). We aren’t either of those two… if we were, we’d be hunting major trophies. So, it’s safe to say the “general rule” would be in effect.

      If you want to read further into this, pick up the 2011 version of “The Search For The Perfect Golf Club” by Tom Wishon. That will answer a LOT of your questions. Most of these golf forums are riddled with “Put you down to prove I’m right” and “No, really- I AM just as good as a Tour pro… I just don’t play on Tour” types.

      Reply

      Richard P. Jacobs II

      12 years ago

      Justin, your last sentence is great, & sooo true…Great comment….Fairways & Greens 4ever….

      rob.c

      12 years ago

      crying out loud, their’s alot of bitching and complaining about this, and alot of you are missing the point, being a lefty golfer i have gone thru i don’t know how many set’s of iron’s, to see what feel’s best in my hand’s and hit’s the ball where i want it to go.( but if you add it all up, how much money have you spent ? to find a set of iron’s and wedge’s, built to your spec’s, that allow you to play your best . how much is that worth? ) i don’t care who manufacture’s them, oem or not, you get what you pay for, personally, i like to see wilson staff, offer some option’s, i’d love a set of customized fg 62’s, finally, you know i have to ask this ! do you play golf on sesame street, i bet it’s it’s fun hanging out with elmo and big bird all day ! rob.c.

      Reply

      Finalist

      12 years ago

      WOW! I can’t believe how many readers of golf forums have missed the point. The whole review was not about mystery metal, marketing or on a lesser not Miura in my opinion. It was about completely custom building a set of quality irons to EXACT specs. Everything from shaft flex, cavity design and performance to colored ferules and grips. The experience of a top quality fitter and a one stop experience.

      I love golf and I find massive joy in the types of experiences in this article. It’s all about personalization and customization within a hobby that this site is based on. I don’t find much joy in equipment where the majority of the purchase price goes towards marketing that equipment – paying for the tour players, paying for the websites, paying for the print collateral, paying for the point of purchase displays, paying for the TV ads, paying for the magazine articles (heck even Titleist pays for product placements in TV shows and movies ((Batman only plays titleist)) ) All that money comes from consumers. I’d rather consumer money go towards something else.

      Reply

      Richard P. Jacobs II

      12 years ago

      Thank You…Fairways & Greens 4ever….

      Reply

      gunmetal

      12 years ago

      This has been a very interesting and nice advertisement for Miura. Some interesting points to consider:

      Myth Busting 101

      1) Miura makes good stuff for the low capper. Having zero cast offerings vastly limits who you can PROPERLY fit. Despite the technological advancements made in forgings, no cavity back forged club can ever offer the forgiveness on mishits as a cavity back club that has been cast.

      2) By default, Miura irons DO NOT feel better than another companies forged club. The reality of the matter is that this boils down to the psychology of expectation. With Miura, we expect nothing short of glory. The human hands are far too supple to detect the microscopic differences between the infinite variations of low carbon steel billets. With the paint jobs, graphics, and names gone, none of us could tell if it was Miura, Mizuno, or Bridgestone. Furthermore, what always gets lost in the “they feel the best argument” is the influence of the shaft and grip. Those two are major factors in the overall feel that is transmitted to the hands.

      3) The experience you had is typical of what we and most serious custom club craftsmen do. While I don’t use Faz Fit simply because you cannot have full shaft insertion which alters flex and feel, I do have a custom made fitting cart I use to determine proper length, flex, and weight. I also wouldn’t ever suggest indoor fittings as visual ball flight is king, but hey it’s NYC so what can ya do? The switch to the HD simulator makes sense.

      The question then arises, why couldn’t this have been done with Wishon? KZG? Adams? Nakashima? (All of which are available as components). As long as the fitter/clubmaker knows the importance of weight sorting and has the tools to measure and adjust the specs if necessary, they should be able to produce a set of clubs that no OEM could ever do off the rack and certainly equal to the set Josh built.

      Your point about consumers deserving more is dead on. Unfortunately large scale OEM’s don’t see it that way. Try sending a 10* driver that actually measures 11* back to Cobra. They will promptly send it back with a note that says something like “The measured specs fall within our allowable tolerances. Thank you for supporting Cobra Golf.” This is why it is critical to get fit by someone like Josh or another serious custom fitter who will craft your clubs precisely.

      Fortunately, it doesn’t have to cost between $1400 and $2000 for a set of irons. I can fit and build a custom “pimped out” set of equal quality to Miura with Wishon, KZG, or Adams and KBS for under $1000 (and still charge $75 an hour).

      My 2 cents.

      Reply

      Adam

      12 years ago

      “I can fit and build a custom “pimped out” set of equal quality to Miura with Wishon, KZG, or Adams and KBS for under $1000 (and still charge $75 an hour).”

      So you’re saying that my custom fit Adams MB2s are every bit as good as the Miuras? Sweet!

      Reply

      gunmetal

      12 years ago

      If your fitter/bidder took the time to meticulously do all the stuff that has been mentioned then absolutely! No question.

      stevenhw8

      12 years ago

      Where you located at??? I want a pimp set with Adams!!!

      Adam

      12 years ago

      My man is Andrew Hodson of Hodson Golf in Richmond, Va. He’s apparently a “Top 100” clubfitter in the world, whatever that means. He does an amazing job, IMO. Great attention to detail. Are you anywhere nearby? His # is 804-475-6311.

      Richard P. Jacobs II

      12 years ago

      Your comment is worth a hell of a lot more than 2 cents!!..Excellent points & well stated..Continued success & best wwishes for a safe, happy & prosperous Holiday season & new year….Fairways & Greens 4ever……

      Reply

      Ron

      12 years ago

      Peter Im not bragging about playing and knowing these players I just happend to run into some of them from knowing one personally thats all ,after all the just people their not special and one of them was Joanne Carner from a coarse I joined in palm beach where anyone could have joined ,she teaches there and she liked my swing on the range and walked up to me and we started talking about golf swing mechanics and I asked her abt getting fit fr clubs cuzz at that time I was looking fr a set thats when I asked her abt spinning shafts etc. and she explained it to me,BIG DEAL. If doing all that stuff makes you mentally play better than Im all for it Im just saying its really not necessary thats all.The only reason I take their word for it abt clubs is because they been around the game alot longer than you guys have thats all. I mean some of you guys are fanatics abt yr clubs, and if Im able to play good golf without that weighting and spine aline stuff what does that tell you not that Im Tiger Woods or anything like that, but theres the proof that that stuff is not necessary like these fitters say it is, dont be gullable like woman. Plus if you told anyone that you spent that much for irons they would think your a fruit cake, not that its none of my business but come on get real here.

      Reply

      Peter

      12 years ago

      “Gullible like a woman” ?? Ron, you are brave to say that. I wouldn’t dare.

      Reply

      Pim

      12 years ago

      Great clubs, an uncle of me has the same heads in his set and they feel great. There is one drawback, the clubsheads damage real easy and after one year of playing there is significant damage on his heads. My heads(mizuno mp53) show less damage which is probably due to harder steel. So while the set is twice is expensive(and probably better etc) it does wear and tear quickly which will require you to buy a new set sooner.

      Reply

      GolfSpy T

      12 years ago

      @PIM – Prior to getting fit for these, I’ve played Miura for more than a year. I have about 50+ rounds on them. Prior to that I played MP-52s. I’d actually suggest that Mizunos are a little softer than Miuras. I can’t say I notice any real difference in wear between the two, however; I walk almost exclusively which when compared to taking a cart, reduces bag chatter quite a bit.

      Reply

      Richard P. Jacobs II

      12 years ago

      This is probably overly obsessive(no, it definately is!..), though I put the clear rubberized covers on my irons…I can see what club I’m reaching for & with the exception of groove wear, my irons look virtually like they did the day I walked outa the shop with them, & they have 92 rounds on ’em as of this past Saturday(Mizuno 4-6i MP-63, 7-PW MP-68)…JUst a thought…Fairways & Greens 4ever….

      Newtradations

      8 years ago

      Mizzy doesn’t have harder steel, and if the uncle’s moira club’s are that bad or any worse than any OEM co. Forged irina its your uncle’s fault. Not the steel, or the maker. I have only had one miura wedge, so imI’no expert on there club’s. However I play a custom built set of Vega vm-02 4-pw with nippon Pro Modus 130 stiff hard stepped. That I built and weighted and matched myself, and have owned multiple sets of mizzy, MacGregor forged j spec. Tried half the wedges from Japan, and Maura has a very distinctive feel more so than other company’s, or I should say other foundaries used by other big name’s, like Endo’s Epon, Bridgestone/Tourstage, or kyeoi’s Vega, Tradational, yururi, SatoriiI believe also. Which also forge Jp wedges, since he visited and made his proto. I will go out and hit my bag of used wedges and ironsiin a field by my house and not pay attention to what I grab out of the bag and whenever I pull a maura out I can tell by how solid and dense the strike feels, but that’s just me. I can always tell which of my club heads I’m hitting nomatter which shaft or grip combo I’ve used and believe me that is more than this self taught club fitters wife will ever get me to write down in public. I am by no means a top 100 guy or anybody that matters. What I do know is what I just shared. What else I know is only a small man makes a comment like that about women. I guarantee my woman would slap the woman right off of his lips. Sorry for that comment it was almost as bad taste as the reason I made it. Almost. Also men dont beauty shop it up about how other men spend There $. The only person that argues that is a person without any, I’m my experience. Also if you ever do have a top tier fitting you wouldn’t ever have any doubt if it makes a difference. You guys that have know what I mean. Enough said about that. One last thing is whoever said there is no advancement or tech in forged cavity backs or that three could never match a casting has never played a Nice forged CNN like a titleist cb take your pick on the model, Bridgestone j40, countless mizzy. Newer cobra combo sets say the last six years. You must not even play golf and renting a set at your local Par 3 where you have never played Bogie golf, EVER and lying to your WOMAN so she will make you feel like a man, doesn’t count. Please don’t comment unless you actually know what you are talking about. This isnt fifth grade some of us have the money to play tbis game and enjoy intelligent and informative conversations. Not ones that teach the new guys the wrong things and bad hobbits. Sorry for wasting everyone’s time.

      Reply

      Peter

      12 years ago

      Actually, even the Indian wants a Miura arrow.

      Reply

      Adam

      12 years ago

      Yep, Jon. That’s the whole goal here. To make absolutely sure that it’s the Indian!

      Reply

      Anon

      12 years ago

      Actually, the argument that “the consumer is simply not going to get a product built to the same tolerances and exacting specifications as the Luke Donalds and Ben Cranes of the world”, is kind of false. There was an interview on GOLFWRX with Luke Donald and hit MP 62’s are pretty much standard, and what you or I could buy off the rack, and he says so himself.

      I found this article to be good. Honestly, if I were GolfSpy T and I were receiving these irons, with C-Tapers, and Iomic grips, you’re damn right they’d be the best irons that money could buy. I wonder how much they cost him?

      Reply

      GolfSpy T

      12 years ago

      @Anon – I can assure that what you buy off the rack is not what Luke Donald has. Don’t get me wrong, he very likely is playing stock heads (no change in loft, offset, etc.), so yes, that part is identical to retail. Where the real difference almost certainly lies is in the shafts. No OEM takes the time to weigh and sort shafts into individual frequency and weight matched sets. Now more then every (in the era of taper-tip shafts) you get what you get – and what you get depends largely on how close to spec the shaft manufacturer happens to be. You can bet that Luke Donald’s irons fall on a perfect frequency curve (that’s what Mizuno’s Tour Van is for). For anybody who doesn’t play on TV, even for custom orders IF you get a perfectly matched set, it’s absolutely nothing more than dumb luck.

      Now having said that, we’ve looked at iron sets from nearly every OEM in the business, and while I can promise you that nobody gets it spot on for the average consumer, Mizuno is indeed better than most.

      Reply

      Justin

      12 years ago

      Taper tips have been around longer than parallel tips (woods- wooden woods- used to have taper tips)… The .370 measurement, which could be tipped as the builder saw fit, was introduced later to help with inventory control.

      Jon

      12 years ago

      Interesting banter back and forth but when its all said and done, it really is the Indian and not the arrow–right?

      Reply

      gunmetal

      12 years ago

      Absolutely! BUT….if the indian has !@#$ arrows, he’s not going be very successful.

      Reply

      jimgolf

      12 years ago

      Congrats in teh new clubs, I love my 202’s but dude those colors!!!! Sunglasses please!!!!

      Reply

      Golfmanufaktur_Germany

      12 years ago

      Hi Golfspy T,

      thanks for the write up and the great pics. Really love the Miura design. While I don’t sell those, the truely are great clubs with very tight tolerances. I reshafted a couple of sets for customers and getting them to the correct specs is really simple, since they are very well made.

      And to those, who think that the standard of the rack quality is good and easily playable:
      I just had a fitting today. The first thing I do, when a customer comes to me is checking the current clubs for length, loft, lie, swingweight and shaftflex. The set I tested was from a well known company and the customer payed some serious money for them. Some clubs he hits okay, others not. The main problem in this set was once again flex progression. You want to have 3 to 4 cpm from club to club. In this set, there were gaps of 9 and 10 with other gaps of just 1 cpm. This just doesn’t help to play golf. Would you drive a car with 4 completly different tires? I wouldn’t. Would you play basketball with one shoe to big, the other to small, shorts that fit, but a shirt too small to properly perform a shot? So why should a golfer play with clubs that don’t fit? Sure – you need good mechanics to olay good golf. And yes – sometimes players should pay for good lessons and not for new clubs. But crap in your bag simply is no fun at all.

      Regards
      Michael

      Reply

      Richard P. Jacobs II

      12 years ago

      Golfspy Matt, well said…..Fairways & Greens ….

      Reply

      Adam

      12 years ago

      And Ron, I’m glad you’re such a good golfer and can hit precision shots with a tin can on a stick. Some of us don’t enjoy that luxury. I, myself, find golf to be a really damn tough game and appreciate all the help I can get. And if I pay a little extra for matching swing weight heads, frequency matched shafts which are perfectly spined, with optimal lie and loft, then so be it. It’s my $ and I’m entitled to do with it what I want. It’s not like your tax money is paying for it, so why do you care?? I’m just taking a few more variables out of the equation, which is great for me.

      Reply

      Golfspy Matt

      12 years ago

      “Taking out a few more variables” is EXACTLY the phrase I use when I explain my golf club obsession to golfers (or non-golfers) who don’t feel the same. I spine and FLO my shafts, I own my own loft and lie machine, I swingweight everything to my preferences, etc. Do I think that I would hit nothing but bad shots if I didn’t do these things? No. But I have the time and desire to do it, and it gives me a small boost to know that the clubs are as perfect as they can be. And most importantly, as many others have said, it makes me happy. If playing with clubs that are off the rack makes you happy, then please do that, because it’s none of my concern.

      Reply

      Golfer of the links

      12 years ago

      Miura likely puts more care and consideration in to the design and assembly of their products than any other OEM in the golf industry. I think they deserve praise and more publicity than they get.

      There clubhead designs are sleek and classy. However, there isn’t anything innovative about their designs. Their designs are clean but lack innovation that can be found in other OEM forgings at ($800.00). They may be nice but its hard to justify $2,000.00+.

      It sounds like this gentlemen is very knowledgeable and does a fantastic job. However, It should also be noted that custom fitting can go beyond what was included in this article. Factors such as customized swing weight, customized shaft flex, lie and lofts, grip size, shaft length, etc.

      Reply

      GolfSpy T

      12 years ago

      @Golfer on the Links – I touched on some of the other aspects of custom fitting it part 1. I definitely did gloss over a bit of the details. It makes for a boring read because I’m absolutely standard for length, lie, and even grip size.

      With respect to flex, as part of the fitting process we tried several shafts ranging between stiff and x-stiff. It wasn’t that long ago my ideal fit would have been a soft-stepped X. Now that shaft manufacturers are starting to introduce + (or in-between) flexes it’s much easier for guys who fall between flexes to get what they need (in my case an KBS C-Taper S+).

      Reply

      Adam

      12 years ago

      Ron, I think you are missing the point, to some degree. What Miura is selling is not necessarily performance that is proportionally better than a lesser priced iron. They are not saying you can do things with these irons that cannot be done with others. What they are selling is unquestionably a wonderfully crafted, beautiful, and unique feeling and great performing iron. One that undeniably fits the specifications that are ordered. Is it twice as good an iron as a set of off the rack Titleist or Callaways? Probably not (although I would say they are more than twice the worth of any set of Pings, but I digress). But it will fit. It will be beautiful. And it will make you fell special holding one, if you appreciate it for what it is. And that is a piece of wonderfully sculpted, golfing sculpture. Think of it like a high end watch. A $10 digital watch you can buy at Wal-Mart tells better time than a Tag Heuer and is more functional. But does the Wal-Mart watch make you happy looking at it? Do you like the feel of the old plastic watch band against your skin or do you prefer the smooth, polished high grade steel bracelet? Do you prefer the lightness of the digital, as if its not there, or do you like the weight of the Tag? I know some are not “watch guys” and some are. If all you care about is price and time precision, get the Timex. I, myself, am a watch guy, much in the same way I appreciate a beautifully sculpted muscleback. Looking at my watch, and my irons makes me happy. Playing my irons makes me happy. I really couldn’t care less what you think of my bag on the first tee. I care how I feel about them, however, and that’s all that matters. So you’re a pragmatist, and that’s fine. You probably drive a Honda Accord that will never break down on you. Good for you. Consumer reports wouldn’t rate Miura a “best buy”, not should they. I’ll still take a Miura made specifically for me and enjoy the hell out of ’em over a set of Callaways that were the 500th set pressed that day which may or not fit. Even if they hit the ball the exact same.

      Reply

      Richard P. Jacobs II

      12 years ago

      Adam, good analogy(watch)…I too am a watch guy(& car)..check out my comment in part I…Couldn’t agree more…Ya gotta give Ron credit though…If not for his comments, there would be many, many less comments/replies to SpyT’s articles…One thing I’ve learned in 51 yrs: A person’s views/beliefs(& mind) are like a locked door w/that individual having the key & being the ONLY one who can unlock that door..You, I & SpyT can knock, yet if the individual is unwilling to unlock the door, well, how long are we gonna stand there & knock on a locked, unanswered door…..Fairways & Greens 4ever…..

      Reply

      Ron

      12 years ago

      All of this shaft frequancy head weight matching the shaft BS isnt going to make you play better I shot low rounds in tournaments and consistant shot after shots with a set of irons I had that were off the rack and later found out those irons specs were all over the place and I still hit a ton o consistant iron shots with the whole set and I know exactly all my distances for each iron. Now to have yr shaft flexes consistant is one thing but this consistant head weight shaft frequancy matching BS is fitters way of making extra money and I had even a lpga legend tell me that personally and that is the truth. You guys have no idea what BS these fitters out there tell you to charge extra money but I geuss theres an ass for every toilet seat out there. You are paying for all of that with miura and for what.

      Reply

      Peter

      12 years ago

      Another un-named LPGA legend that Ron plays with. I guess if you are not a tour pro, Ron would not allow you to be on the same course, let alone to be the fourth when his buddy, the PGA 12 time winner missed the tee off time with Ron.

      Reply

      gunmetal

      12 years ago

      Cars with misaligned wheels, worn out brakes and timing belts, still drive. They don’t help you get better at driving but they can still get you to point a to point b, I suppose. Having all of your clubs in perfect spec and matched for your swing allows you to focus on the game and scoring. But like I said, if all you want to do is get from point A to point B, go buy a box set from Walmart and you’re good to go.

      Reply

      Justin

      12 years ago

      Isn’t that what golf, at its core, is all about?

      Ron

      12 years ago

      T. What I mean by fancy clubs is this so called better metal than everyone else and their claim that their forging is better than everyone else where in reality its 1025 and this sand vs marble in a jar BS, which not one person can tell the difference, like I said before I wanted to play miuras to and feel like I had something special only to find out by playing with em that their no more solid or better performing than say mizuno callaway titleist and ping. I was just hoping to find even alittle bit of difference in performance so I wouldnt feel guilty of buying them but the solid truth is that they are like alot of people tell me that they are way over priced irons. Im not looking down at the average golfer at all in fact Im just telling all of them the sad hard facts because its golf companys like miura who charge this kind of money for irons just makes other companys raise their prices to let people know that their products deserve that, titleist for instance charging a thousand bucks for a set of ap2 irons, ITS GETTING OUT OF HAND NOW WHEN IS THIS 900 BUCKS AND UP FR A SET OF IRONS GOING TO END not to mention now yr only getting 4 to pw instead of 3to pw in some sets.

      Reply

      Justin

      12 years ago

      It’s simple physics: two or more models, of the same loft, lie, weight, offset, etc.- all built to the same specs- will perform exactly the same on solid, centered strikes. Cavity backs will be more helpful on offcenter strikes. Zinc can’t be bent for loft or lie. Whatever metal used- be it 1020, 8620, 17-7, 304, whatever- has no bearing on performance and an almost imperceptible difference in feel (per Dave Tutleman). Plain and simple.

      Reply

      Jordan

      12 years ago

      @ Golfspy T: I would definitely pay 1400-1600 for those! But I’m guessing they were a bit more than that, do you mind letting us know how much these set you back? I really appreciated both articles, I didn’t know much about Miura before reading these articles. As far as the subjectives go, I believe that the cb 501 is hands down the best looking cavity back I’ve ever seen. I play mizzy’s 53’s, and I won’t be able to look at them the same after catching a glimpse of these babies! Thanks for sharing this with us, some of us genuinely and sincerely enjoyed it.

      Reply

      Golfspy Matt

      12 years ago

      @Ron: Why the concern over what other golfers/people think? Play the clubs that make you happy. I know a handful of guys who play Miuras, some good players, some not so good, but why should I care what they play? Should you only drive a BMW or Porsche if you’re a race car driver?

      @Brian Cass: You’re point about getting loft and lies checked is fair, but I think the question becomes: should that be necessary? Or should OEMs have enough pride in their product to get things right the first time? More importantly (and most overlooked) is the point that T made about shafts. Having your shafts weigh and flex the same is not a small thing, and that kind of thing is only available from a custom club builder with his own shaft inventory. It’s not something you’re ever going to get from a Titleist or a Mizuno unless you are playing on TV.

      It seems these articles have a lot of people worked up over nothing. I don’t believe that it was T’s intent to convince anyone to buy Miura irons. I think the point is simply to educate people to the differences in buying from a company like Miura and going through a custom club building and buying something from a big OEM.

      @Golfspy T: Great articles, I’ve really enjoyed them both. I hope you enjoy the irons for a long time.

      Reply

      Justin

      12 years ago

      Since no one seems to have a clue as to how mass-production works, I’ll help you. Unless robots have developed enough to the point they’re R2-D2 and C-3P0 (fully automated with highly developed manual dexterity and sufficient artificial intelligence), you HAVE to use humans for the majority of the work. That leads to human error, which is inevitable. Most (most, before anyone gets a hair up their @ss) golf clubs are mass-produced, just as mundane things like cars and Q-tips are. There HAS to be a tolerance… if you went through the amount of quality control people think they deserve, that alone would cause that “clone set from Costco” to cost about as much as a stock set of Miura’s- and that stock set of Miura’s would be nigh unattainable. There is pride involved, but there has to be a REALISTIC point of view to it. I bet I could look at the interiors of those fancy Porches and BMW’s (or any of the cars/trucks/suv’s in your garages) and find things that are out of tolerance; they’d be things only myself or someone in my profession would know, but it’d still get me a discount at the lot (been there, done that… just not with a Porche). Can anyone here claim to be 100% perfect 100% of the time? I didn’t think so… so why do you think your little golf clubs- that aren’t earning you a paycheck, no less- to be any different?

      Getting things done by the clubmaker on the number is nice, but not one of us here would notice it if things weren’t exactly perfect. As I said in an earlier post, it’s most likely not one of us here would notice if a clubhead was 1-2g off, or one shaft was 120g and the other 124g (or was a few CPMs off), or a grip was +1/64″ instead of “standard”… you get the idea. It does behoove the builder to get as close as s/he can get (the pride thing), but again, no one’s perfect.

      Reply

      Ron

      12 years ago

      Brian I couldnt agree more but u know how it is guys who have trouble breaking 80 are more interested in thinking their getting clubs that they think are going to help their game, give me a break. Good players dont think about getting this fancy stuff because they know they can play good golf with anything and they know people are getting soooo brain washed with this so called great metal and forging BS. Not to mension that if I saw a guy with miuras I would say to myself WHO THE HELL DOES THIS GUY THINK HE IS and Im sure I wouldnt be the only person that would think that, not to mention that your drawing attention to yrself with fancy clubs like that, people would be like I have to see this guy hit a ball with these 1500 hundred dollar clubs who thinks he is Tiger Woods or something. Personally if it was me Iwould be embarrased to carry miuras because who wants to draw that kind of attention to yourself. AS PAYNE STEWART SAYS IF YOUR GOING TO DRESS LIKE THIS YOU BETTER BACK IT UP. Oh one other thing about miuras is that their sweet spot is in towards the heel where everyones other equipment is in the MIDDLE of the club which makes miuras alittle more difficult for the average person to play. So good luck

      Reply

      GolfSpy T

      12 years ago

      Ron, Welcome back. What “fancy stuff” are you talking about? Fancy like building to exacting specifications (pros get that in the tour van). Fancy like colored grips? Take a look at K.J. Choi and Y.E. Yang (those guys are pretty good, no?). Maybe it’s an Asian thing (my wife is Chinese).

      Quite frankly you seem to look down your nose at anyone who can’t play the game to the level you claim you to (I’ll take you at your word), but really, why are you so concerned with what’s in other people’s bags? I trust you play the game because you enjoy it – or at least you used to, but if a 25 handicap wants to play a set of Baby Blades because that’s what he enjoys…more power to him.

      Of course, as I discussed in part 1, handicap is only a starting point in the fitting equation…what mine won’t tell you is that I actually hit a fairly solid iron, my short game is inconsistent, and I don’t hit nearly as many fairways as I should. If I needed more forgiveness than the 501s offer I’d be in a Passing Point right now.

      As for Miura iron being an attention grabber…if only that were the case (although i’m guessing mine will draw quite a bit of attention because of the “fancy stuff”). You’re obviously well educated with respect to the whole of what’s out there, but you are definitely not the average golfer. The vast majority of people I encounter still haven’t heard of Miura, and some actually look down their noses at me while reaching into their big bag of off-the-rack goodness. They pity me for not having what they have. Point is, status symbols are only effective when everybody knows what you’ve got and how much it costs. This ain’t that.

      Reply

      Richard P. Jacobs II

      12 years ago

      Golfspy T, no might be or maybe, you’ve definately developed a “condition,” though you’ve earned it…Enjoy it & enjoy those sticks…They’re sick…I’ve been called an “ultra-traditionalist” by those who know me(& golf w/me), though after looking @ these pics, I’ve gotta do what I’ve gotta do…Although in my comments in Part I, I stated that I would probably not switch from Mizuno to Miura, I’ve changed my mind…When my current set(4-7i MP-63s, 8i-PW MP-68s) runs its course, in 2-3 seasons, I’m going with Miura..While you haven’t converted me on the multi-color set, there is one particular color that is definitely “non-traditional” that I would love to have on my ferrules, & possibly my grips…Great article..I’m gonna have to exert a lot of self discipline to play these irons out, cuz I’ve already gotta a mental picture of my new irons..This ain’t a good thing!..lol…The best to ya..Fairways & Greens 4ever…

      Peter

      12 years ago

      I guess Ron wants players at 100 to play fakes from China, those who score 90 to play clones from Costco, those at 80 to play the Pings and TM, 70 to play custom Mizuno and Miura and the pros (oh, that would be Ron and all the un-named pros and tour players that he knows and plays with exclusively; God help the single who got squeezed into his threesome) to play gold plated Honma’s.
      I had a Porsche but I certainly could not drive it to the limit. I guess my last name was not Andretti and I should drive a Kia.

      Reply

      Richard P. Jacobs II

      12 years ago

      Peter, great comment..lol..Fairways & Greens 4ever….

      Dan m.

      12 years ago

      Ron, I’ll bet you think BMW’s, Porche’s, and MBenz and all there precission engineering are no beter than your Ford because you are a good driver, and they are expensive… I am a plus handicap player and have had my entire bag fitted to my needs and likes. I was a single handicap player and only did it because I won a $1000. gift certificate to a golf shop for winning our club championship. First I was fitted by a top 100 fitter for my irons, KZG. I trimmed 5 strokes off my scores. Next I was fitted for new wedges and a putter and took off 5 more strokes. Sure I was breaking 80 with my old gear and now with my new gear I break 70 almost half the time and when I don’t I still score in the low 70’s.
      When we limit ourselves just because we have reached a good level We will never get to be our best! GolfSpy T also made a great point in part 1 of this artical, If you buy new gear ever few years you end up spending just as much or more on lower value gear. I have had my BMW for 14 years and it is still a great drive, my friend next door is on his forth new car in the same time and third set of irons since I got mine. Only the golfers who really know the game even know what the top clubs like Miura’s are and how much they cost, they are not a status symbol they are a superior tool in a good golfers hands. A weapon if you will.

      Reply

      Richard P. Jacobs II

      12 years ago

      Dan, great comment…How true….Fairways % greens 4ever….

      Richard P. Jacobs II

      12 years ago

      Dan, I’m a 4.2 from the backs(blue) @ a club that is the past host of the Men’s US Amateur(2003)..While I’ve made the final eight in our championships, I’ve never gotten to the final four(We play match play from 32 to 4 then a two day 36 hole medal final)..My point is that I may be where you were were prior to your change, though I doubt that I could get to where you are now, regardless of my equipment…Still, if I could gain improvement, I would go through the process..I presently play Mizuno MP-63s(4-6i) & MP-68s(7-PW), stock TT S300 shafts, 1′ flat & 1′ strong…At your convenience, could you please tell me about your game before vs. presently & the what, where, etc. in your improvements..My e-mail is [email protected] or if it’s easier, my cell’s (412)901-4841..Congrats on your championship!…The best to ya…Fairways & Greens 4ever…..

      Rogue Trader

      11 years ago

      Ron Ron Ron. For some of us money is not a problem. For me, 2k on some irons is a drop in the bucket. So are you mad at me, or the company charging that much? I wear Panerai watches as well. Go ahead, google it. Do they tell time better? No, I know that but I like the style of them and that’s enough for me. Stop hating so much and play your off the rack clubs if that’s what YOU like. But for you to turn your nose up to me for playing what I like is a load of Shi*. I play to a 11.1HC, sorry I’m not a +1 player and up to YOUR standards. Think about this. There are some kids out there who’s parents can’t even put food on their tables every night and think you paying $800 for some clubs is insane. And before you open your mouth, yes I donate 1000’s to charity here in NYC every year for that simple fact. I’m also a big brother that brings inner city kids out to play golf for summer camp.

      Reply

      Bigleftygolfer

      10 years ago

      @rougetrader

      @rouge trader
      I love the analogy I have people tell me I waste money by wearing oxxford super 220’s or brioni or Ralph Lauren purple shoes etc etc

      Not to be an elitist but these people don’t have our bank accounts I respect that, I just wish they do not hold it against me that I work my ass off and can afford what I like and still save lots of money for my family and retirement.

      I own a used set of LH miura heads with all new parts I purchased it used because I am a lefty and wanted to give them a try now I will not give my irons up without a fight. I never understood this critique of how other people spend their money. I assume it is a jealousy thing as some of my dinners can cost more than some people’s family vacations. At the same time I hang out with many old friends that make less than 100k a year and they never judge me and I never judge them. I guess people are just insecure so rather than thinking about working harder to get the things they want they decide to criticize other people that have made tough decisions. I could have played competitive golf for example but would have grinded for 60k-80k a year instead I gave up the game I loved (at least competitively) in favor of designing HPT algorithms and ULL trading solutions boring work but I get to buy and give what I want to family and friends… And that does make me happy… So enjoy what you want and keep spending people like us are growing the economy for others…

      Brian Cass

      12 years ago

      @Golfspy T:

      I was not suggesting MyGolfSpy.com was anti-OEM…I was suggesting that there is a cross section of single digit cappers and others who are let’s say “anti establishment” who believe grain flow forging was the death of Mizuno or that Chinese forgings are garbage. I certainly don’t subscribe to those.

      I would respectfully disagree with your statement that “the consumer is simply not going to get a product built to the same tolerances and exacting specifications as the Luke Donalds and Ben Cranes of the world.”

      If you go to a well respected club fitter who has a loft and lie machine and you buy Titleist or Mizuno or Taylor Made…and make sure the OEM specs are on target, then modify to your desired specs, you’re getting essentially the same tight fit you would on tour or from Miura (in my opinion) The fitter on a tour van may be more surgical about it…that I’ll give you. I guess the Tour Spec grip tape you get on tour makes their clubs that much better?????

      There is some voodoo in all of this ie: Adam Barr/Miura literature/website not being specific on the exact metal used. Titleist tells you flat out it’s 1020 carbon steel or 25C. Mizuno tells you it’s 1025E. Somehow there needs to be a mystical quality to Miuras….so they don’t tell you what metal they use. Likely because their afraid to tell you it’s the same stuff the OEM’s use. They are great clubs, surgical even. Worth twice or more….not for me and not for Jack Nicklaus, Ben Hogan, Tiger Woods, Luke Donald, Webb Simpson and onto infinity. Simply are not that much better. Josh or any other competent fitter could fit you into MB 712’s, Adams Blades or that would have you playing just as well as these…might not look as nice though! Can’t pimp them out more unless you get CTapers that glow in the dark!

      Reply

      GolfSpy T

      12 years ago

      Again…you’re more or less making my point for me. Yes…a good club fitter or pro shop can make a set right. Well, they can adjust lie and loft. Shaft flex? Not without rebuilding the set. We’ve tested plenty of sets from the OEMs for lie, loft, length, and flex. NONE of the big names get it exactly right. Some most certainly come closer than others. Tour Van stuff is built to exacting specifications, and in some cases while the clubs may share the same names, the retail versions are distinctly different (often to the consumer’s benefit, but different nonetheless). With Miura you don’t need your pro shop guy to make it right after the fact.

      The rub here is that most OEMs won’t allow builders to assemble their products as components. If they did it would make for a whole new ball game. Head weight and balance…I suppose you can correct that with some beautiful looking lead tape.

      I won’t suggest that the last two being off a bit here or there is going to make an appreciable difference in performance, but they are details that speak to the attention to detail and craftsmanship that goes into every Miura iron. From a value perspective, well…to each his own.

      Reply

      Justin

      12 years ago

      Callaway almost did with the I-Mix, but ignorance on everyone’s part when it first came out killed it. Besides, it’s a logistical nightmare for retailers to stock thousands (10k+?) of heads, uncut shafts, grips and disposable inventory (like solvent, ferrules, tip weights, tape, etc.) so a proper clubfitting could be done. Either everyone would go out of business, the clubs would become even MORE unaffordable than they already are, or- most likely- both. It’s a no-win situation for almost everyone.

      For the great majority, none of that makes a difference, anyway. Unless you’re name is Tiger Woods or Nick Faldo (and let’s face it, none of us are), you won’t notice if your 7i is 1.5g heavier than spec (it’d have to be at least 6g over/under to make a noticeable difference), or your 3i shaft flexes 5cpm too slow, or your 9i is .5* more upright than the fitter originally meant to bend it to. “Feel”, the marketing departments dream buzzword, can be manipulated through shaft flex, grip material, the design of the head, or other factors… the metal used is of little consequence (per Dave Tutleman). I will say, though, that if two irons are close enough in loft that the two clubs travel the same difference that will be noticeable, but the rest isn’t. It’s a comfort thing for the obsessed, nothing more.

      I didn’t read anywhere that the CG location or leading edge/toe shape was manipulated for your own optimal ballflight and preference… which is one of the “tricks” a Tour pro is afforded.

      Brian Cass

      12 years ago

      Beautiful clubs for sure. Better than Mizzy’s and Titleist’s? Nope. All depends what feel you want and how much you want to drop on clubs.

      Ask Luke Donald and Webb Simpson. If these clubs and their mystery metal were SO much better than “OEM” blades forged in China vs by “Miura San”, these guys would drop their $200k equipment contracts and play Miura’s with KJ Choi. Ben Crane’s 710 AP2’s working just fine this month too.

      If you want forged and nearly zero offset, you can’t go wrong with Miuras but 712 MB’s and MP 69’s are less than half price after you pimp out Miuras to the nines. I get the whole “anti OEM” sentiment out there but there’s a reason why every pro isn’t bagging Miura and Scratch…they are simply NOT vastly better golf clubs.

      Reply

      GolfSpy T

      12 years ago

      @Brian – You’ve basically made my point for me. While the brands you listed make an excellent product (if not for Miura, without question I’d have a bag full of Mizuno irons), the consumer is simply not going to get a product built to the same tolerances and exacting specifications as the Luke Donalds and Ben Cranes of the world.

      Miura offers the average golfer a Tour Van quality experience. Yes, absolutely that comes at an increased cost, and whether or not that cost is justified by the benefit is an individual decision. Personally, I do find value in the attention details and craftsmanship.

      Finally, we’re certainly not anti-OEM, but we do think it’s important that the consumer understand what compromises are made when producing for the masses – and that the Miura approach is unique in today’s marketplace.

      Reply

      Xamilo

      12 years ago

      Simple. Luke Donald gets the clubs built on perfect specs for him, with everything measured, every shaft calibrated to a gram of tolerance and gets a $4 million/year contract on playing them. Why wouldn’t he play them?

      Why I don’t play Miuras? Becuase I can barely afford $500 for a used set of irons built on whatever spec the original owner (or OEM) wanted. If I had $3000 to spare in irons, I wouldn’t doubt one second on getting fit for Miuras. If I had $1500? Them I would get fit for Mizunos.

      Most probably I wouldn’t shave more than one stroke with new irons, but knowing you hold a piece of art in your hands, something that was “specially made for you” makes a difference.

      You can surely go from one place to another in a mass-made Honda Accord or Ford Taurus, but the difference with a custom “made for” high -end Jaguar / Mercedes Benz with the exact specs you wanted is abysmal, even if it covers the exact same function.

      Reply

      Golfspy Dave

      12 years ago

      Awesome set of sticks. Love the colors.
      I see these in your bag for a long time…

      Reply

      Finalist

      12 years ago

      The shafts and grips look incredible. The colors going into the satin look very good.

      Reply

      stevenhw8

      12 years ago

      Nice article, T.
      What about a video of yourself “giggling like a little school girl”? :)
      Your writing has almost convinced me to go to a custom builder next time!

      Reply

      GolfSpy T

      12 years ago

      Even if you don’t buy Miura, you should certainly work with a custom builder. It’s really a shame that more OEMs aren’t willing to treat their heads as components, and give fitters, builders, and consumers more opportunity to get an ideal fit, and generally do things their way.

      Reply

      stevenhw8

      12 years ago

      Besides Miura, which other OEM offers this option? I was looking into Adams or Mizuno for the next set. Really like the possibility of changing ferrules and grips.

      GolfSpy T

      12 years ago

      It depends more on the builder than the brand. Unfortunately the bigger OEMs don’t allow club fitters and builders to order the various pieces as components, instead the fitter can place an order, and the OEM assembles the clubs. At that point you’re limited to whatever custom options the OEM offers.

      Any component brand (KZG, SwingScience,Wishon, etc.) would give you the option of custom grips, ferrules, paint fill etc. (it all depends on your builder’s capabilities, and willingness to go nuts.

      Royal Collection Irons are also available to builders as components, but from a price perspective, they’re not much less than Miuras.

      Scratch obviously has an extensive custom department, and European company, John Letters Golf, also has some advanced custom options available.

      gunmetal

      12 years ago

      Both Adams and Mizuno have a select number of accounts whereby they can order components only. The Adams account is called the Adams Idea Pro Tech account. We can’t get everything in the Adams lineup in component, but we can get most. Same with Tour Edge Exotics woods and hybrids.

      But to your point, the vast majority of OEM do not do this for a multitude of reasons. As consumers become more educated on the very basis of this thread, we’ll start seeing more and more Wishon, KZG, Miura, and similar components in golfers’ bags. With that said, my guess is we’re probably not too far away where Callaway, Titleist, Nike and all the big boys offer something similar to what Adams, Mizuno, and Tour Edge currently have in place. You can only market against the reality of true custom fitting for so long….

      Brian

      12 years ago

      Love the look, the multi-color paint fills, grips, and ferrules are awesome.

      Reply

      Adam

      12 years ago

      I forgot to mention that that was a wonderful writeup. Very well done. You made me a Miura believer. I would looove to get a set of custom fit Muira blades, myself!

      Reply

      Kenton

      12 years ago

      Call Continental Golf in Raleigh, NC. 919-833-8887. Julian Bunn is one of the best in the business. http://www.continentalgolf.net
      Regards,

      Reply

      Kenton

      12 years ago

      So is Josh at NYGC.

      scott

      10 years ago

      there aren’t many Kenton’s in the world……

      Adam

      12 years ago

      It’s interesting, but one reason I buy Adams is that their quality control is among the best, Miura notwithstanding. My clubfitter said that in fitting my MB2s with C-tapers (also S+, I fight very high spin and high trajectory as well) that they all had correct standard loft and lie out of the box with exactly the correct D2 swing weight! He said that only happen with any frequency with Adams, in his experience. Mizuno is also excellent with their tolerances, though. And to make it even better, the frequencies of the shafts were all within 2 CPM. Unbelievable. I almost hated to have him bend them upright 2*. The result is that I have a nice consistent progression of flat boring trajectory from my 4I to my gap and with very little draw or fade. In short, quality equipment tailored to you by a great clubfitter can make you look very good on the golf course. It was a little more pricey, but I’ll definitely recoup that investment from my buddies over the next year!

      Reply

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