SERIES: An Insider’s Look At Modern Golf Club Design | PART 2
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SERIES: An Insider’s Look At Modern Golf Club Design | PART 2

SERIES: An Insider’s Look At Modern Golf Club Design | PART 2

Golf Club R&D

In Part 1 of our insider’s look into R&D in modern club design, we broke out the three tiers of golf club manufacturers and explained some basic R&D challenges that apply to any company looking to design golf clubs. Here in Part 2, I’ll talk about the top two tiers of golf club manufacturers: the major OEMs and the second tier “identity” companies.

RECAP: The Three Tiers

First Tier: The truth is there are only just more than a handful of Golf CLUB companies with truly capable and sufficiently large staffs of R&D personnel to excel in product development (ball companies are a different question entirely) – these are the major OEMs.

Second Tier: Following these major OEMs are smaller golf companies with R&D on a diminished scale. These are frequently “identity” brands that are product segment focused (hybrid clubs, wedges), having perhaps 5 to 30 R&D personnel on staff.

Third Tier: These are niche custom builders and “garage tinkerers” with NO real R&D – likely just one idea that is the focus of their business.

1st-tier-r-d

Do not be misled – you generally cannot “see” the R&D at the point of sale. All the clubs have neat graphics and look cool on the floor of the golf shop – and they will all hit the ball – but there are just not equal amounts of “gray matter” behind them or equivalent understandings of our game and golf club design. Ergo, they absolutely will NOT perform the same for you.

And many in the media know little more about golf club design than many tech-savvy golf geeks – they just regurgitate what they are told by the OEM’s product people and call it a day. They are writers, not golf club “gear heads”.

2nd-tier-r-d

The long overdue truth that the golfer-consumer is finally beginning to learn is that there is a point where the goodness of golf club design begins to matter to your score – i.e. a point with every putt where the performance superiority of a high MOI mallet putter design still gets the ball in the hole (despite the human error introduced), while the same putt and human error with a CNC milled blade style design becomes a miss. A point where a better driver design stays in the edge of the fairway instead of getting into the rough!  Add ONE to your score at the end of the day in each case!

DESIGN MATTERS MORE THAN YOU THINK!  But you just do not see the design working to keep that drive in the fairway or that putt falling in the side of the hole.

Case Study:  

YOU – Shopping for a New Set of Irons

The new 2016 irons are out, and you have convinced yourself that you need a new set of irons – maybe you already got all the birdies out of your old ones.

So, you are looking irons from Brands X, Y, and Z. Both X and Y have “stars” and “medals” from the golf media, and Brand Z is a “value-priced” offering from one of the big golf stores. The X clubs are from a top 5 brand, and the Y clubs are from a second tier “identity” company known for something other than irons, but they seem okay.

All three look good and even hit the ball pretty good into the net in the golf shop. But consider this – the X driver probably have tens of thousands of man-hours of R&D and technology development behind them, while the Y irons may be backed by only hundreds of hours of development (or less). Meanwhile, the Z irons is really just “dumbed-down” copies of someone else’s design with different graphics and finish – developed during one afternoon in a CAD file and probably constructed with lower quality materials.

case-study

My advice to you on choosing golf equipment – buy your clubs from the larger OEM tier whenever you can, and focus mostly on the identity products from the second tier. You can be relatively certain you are getting good design technologies in both cases, and you are not wasting your money.

You should really make your final decision based upon how serious you are about your game, because in the absence of any quantitative data (which I hope the market will begin to give us soon), I would always recommend the Brand X configured with the right shaft, because the better R&D from Brand X will time and again matter to your score.  And do not take my advice about the shaft part lightly – it matters greatly.

Leave Brand Z for the guys who only play twice a year. If you have budget constraints, look for a close-out set of an excellent last year’s model from one of the larger OEMs or a well-cared-for used set.

So how do they (the weaker R&D groups and the “garage tinkers”) get away with this incompetence?

The really good news for these guys has always been that 95% of the buying public lacks the skill or knowledge necessary to spot a poor performing design or defective club in usage – or for that matter, they are unable to spot BETTER R&D.

 Even worse, no one is measuring golf club performance objectively and reporting it to the consumer.

So, Where Do You Find BETTER R&D?

It Fundamentally Begins with the Right People. Few contemporary golf club designers / R&D guys (I am not saying none, but I am serious about the real number being few) understand both golf club design AND the disciplines of Applied Research – control and experimental groups, sample sizes, statistical inferences, cause and effect relationships, bias, single blind and double blind studies, “halo” effect, test design and controls, single variable studies and multi-variant studies, to name a few. These Applied Research things are learned in graduate school after getting the BS degree in engineering school, and they are the essential understandings required for doing REAL R&D.

The guys with these proper credentials are almost exclusively found in the R&D groups of the most capable OEMs. Fewer still, though, are the number of these capable golf club design guys with the advanced degrees and the understanding of basic golf club design, who can also hit the ball well enough to evaluate the goodness of their own work or more importantly understand the nuanced feedback they hear from highly skilled players. These guys are surely no worse than honest single digit handicappers. I would number these guys at less than a dozen or so during my 30+ year career in golf club R&D and design.

marty-jertson

Good player skills are also essential within the group of R&D personnel for more nuanced development, but caution is necessary as skilled player employees can skew the results of otherwise good testing with “halo” effect, “bias”, and “group think” results. Alternatively, close relationships must be fostered with highly skilled players and test panelists outside the company, but they too must be low handicap players.

Size Does Matter

The depth and breadth of the R&D effort is often a function of the size and strength of the OEM in the marketplace (and its focus or brand identity).

Generally, bigger will produce better. 

But a relatively small and capable R&D group at an “identity” brand can do some really excellent work if their efforts stay focused on a single product category and they “dance with the one that brung ‘em”.

And then there are the little niche guys and garage tinkerers who generally know very little about what they are doing and have NO R&D capabilities whatsoever. They are generally about customization and fitting stories focused on one product.

The larger OEMs are to some extent ceding the equipment space for the short game to the niche companies and garage tinkerers for putters and wedges, while they concentrate on drivers and irons – where the money is.

Most larger OEM R&D groups are preoccupied with driver development (for good reasons). The driver is the most expensive single club and the one where performance improvement is most visible to the consumer, and it is the “lead dog” for turning the consumer into a “brand conscious” player. “Longer” is a simple marketing message to sell, and much of what is learned in driver R&D can be transferred to development of other clubs.

Inside Bigger OEM R&D

Perspective and Design Development Philosophies will establish the direction and the scope of new product development. (Read more on Philosophy in my Overview Article on R&D.)

Where we had become accustomed to annual product introductions for many years, we are now seeing excessive rates of innovation from some larger OEMs – too fast with too little differentiation or significance. This is contrary to the best practices for growing any other kind of business and ignores the very real seasonality issues of golf. It ultimately compromises brand integrity with the consumer and complicates the OEM-retailer’s business relationship immensely. Brand integrity of course suffers, and this excessive innovation is also anathema to enhancing product integrity. Simply put, we need a “cease fire” of sorts on excessive product introduction. (You guys know who you are.)

But not all R&D groups are capable of rapid innovation, so this is a competitive advantage the larger OEMs will always want to exploit.

There are R&D DESIGN problems and challenges for each new product that “pushes the envelope”. And new designs will always beget new manufacturing and marketing challenges.

Given the proximity of most of these major OEMs to one another (many in Carlsbad, CA), and the reality of shared suppliers, there is great likelihood that some level of industrial espionage is occurring in OEM golf everyday.

This is also the 21st century, so you might expect that computers are becoming an important part of golf club design. BUT, (big BUT here), the old “garbage in, garbage out” axiom associated with computer modeling for golf club design optimizations leaves us with considerable challenges regarding most computer modeling so far. We R&D guys honestly need to know much more about golf club design and get it into the computers before we can fully exploit the benefits of simulations. Some materials deformation simulations are good, though, for researching spring effect, and even acoustics engineering is becoming commonplace in some of the larger OEM R&D groups.

The Second Tier “Identity” Companies

The product identity companies in the second tier are very good at perhaps one product category. They may be “hybrid” companies or “forged irons” or “wedge” companies, but they generally have a strong focus and brand identity in the marketplace.

The temptation to grow through diversification is huge for companies in this dangerous middle. Most will have stockholders and balance sheets like any company, and a passion to prove their merit by expanding outside their one successful product category… so they do.

But diversification beyond their successful origins is a very dangerous double-edged sword of larger opportunity or a path to product mediocrity or even grand failure. It requires access to very large capital investment to make the leap to a full product company and compete with the product development and marketing machines of the larger OEMs. The expenses for media costs and Pro Tours promotions alone at that level are huge.

Success in this “second tier” is very challenging. Management has to be nearly perfect, and there is little room for mistakes in any part of the organization.

hybrids-dummy

wedges-clevealnd

What’s Left for the Smaller Companies?

The lion’s share of the golf equipment business happens in these two top tiers of OEMs, but their common sense prioritization of R&D efforts toward the more visible and profitable product categories of irons and woods leaves the short game products category with far less technology and fewer marketing dollars being spent – and therefore vulnerable to insurgents of many types.

less-short-game

This tertiary priority for short game products development opens the door to the creation of many smaller niche producers for wedges and putters.  A few of these small companies are good at what they do, but they generally have NO capital for real R&D and exist based on one supposedly good idea . . . or maybe NOT!

We’ll talk next about what is really happening in this third tier next – the “niche” companies and “garage tinkerers”.

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Bob Renegar

Bob Renegar

Bob Renegar

Bob served as Director of R&D for both Arnold Palmer Golf and the Ben Hogan Company. He has worked as a consultant for some of the biggest names in the golf industry and launched both Solus Golf (2003) and Renegar wedges (2011); selling the latter nearly a year ago. Bob holds 5 patents for golf and sports equipment with further patents pending. In addition to his design work, Bob served on Golf Digest's technical panel from 1996-2008.

Bob Renegar

Bob Renegar

Bob Renegar

Bob Renegar

Bob Renegar

Bob Renegar





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      Rachel

      8 years ago

      Using drivers for example: If CT and MOI is maxed per USGA regulations – what are “Tier 1” companies spending 32 million on in R&D? The money factor would be a solid argument if companies had no limits as to design, but Tony, the fact is that they do.

      Reply

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      This is not actually a fact.

      If CT and MOI were categorically the only things that mattered, every driver would perform basically identically. That’s not the case.

      Why?

      First, let’s make sure that we understand that CT (and the .830) limit is applicably largely (nearly exclusively) to the center of a titanium-faced driver. So yes…dead nut center to dead nut center .830 is the limit for everyone. In every day terms, the CT limit is meant to limit ball speed…nothing else. And let’s be real about something. Tour players don’t hit the center of the fact anywhere near 100% of the time. Amateurs…average golfers… So the logical question is, is a .830 center-face limit actually even relevant for most of us? More on that below.

      The CT limit has ZERO to do with aerodynamics. If you can make the club travel faster at equivalent force, then you increase distance within the confines of the USGA limit. It’s why companies like PING, Callaway, and others I’ve seen, have invested heavily in aerodynamics research.

      In today’s drivers, the max COR area of the face is relatively small. Best case, probably less than the diameter of a Nickel, more likely the diameter of a penny. What about the rest of the face? What if the entire area of the face achieved .830 COR? We’re a long (long, long, long) way from that, and companies continue to invest R&D dollars in both face and body technologies (flexible structures) that can get us there.

      Why doesn’t every driver fly straight? What if bulge and roll radii could be improved to provide more consistent results for both launch and directionality? Money is being spent on this.

      Today’s drivers are largely made of titanium and some composite. That has allowed golf companies to push CG farther back, lower…basically it’s freed up more discretionary mass to move the CG closer to a given company’s theoretical ideal for a given product. This matters because CT/COR only contributes to ball speed. Distance isn’t a reflection of ball speed exclusively, it’s a reflection of ball speed and launch conditions. So if you can achieve higher launch, with disproportionately lower spin, you will achieve greater distance. Basically you alter the spin loft equation, which actually is a means to increase ball speed without impacting CT/COR. So as you can imagine, new materials, structures, and anything else that allows for more idealized placement of discretionary weight is something R&D is spent on.

      And speaking of materials…there are some that believe that since the CT/COR limit is based on titanium it may be possible (using other materials) to achieve better results within the CT limitations. A significant amount of money is being spent on materials research.

      Regarding MOI. Yes…the USGA has set the limit, but did you know that no current mass market driver butts up against that limit? The few designs that have been close (or at the max) have been wildly unconventional (square or wildly elongated). They weren’t what we might call easy to look at. They were consistent, but not particularly long. What if companies could reach those limits with a conventional design (again…materials, engineering)? R&D money is being spent here as well.

      We’re talking about millions of dollars in research in areas where there is still substantial room for improvement within the confines of the USGA rules. And this is just the driver…fairways, hybrids, irons, wedges, most definitely putters, and certainly the golf ball. There are still huge opportunities for improvement, all without violating a single USGA regulation.

      It’s also important to acknowledge that Tier 3 and even some Tier 2 only release new drivers once every few years. Certainly there are some irresponsible product cycles – with admittedly little differentiation between the new thing and what came before it. That said, as fitting has become every so slightly more of a mainstream reality, companies have diversified their offerings to fit a wider range of golfers. So for example, if we consider the current Callaway lineup, there’s:

      Sub Zero (low/forward CG – fits an aggressive transition, low face impact, negative AoA guy).
      Double Black Diamond (high/forward CG – also works well with higher speed, aggressive players, but more suitable for high face contact and neutral to positive angle of attack).
      Great Big Bertha (mid/mid-back CG – it’s Callaway’s versatile fitting platform. Has some breadth, but won’t fit a Sub Zero or DBD guy nearly as well).

      Others too obviously, but the point is that companies now spend to develop multiple products to fit legitimately different types of players. There’s market (over) saturation, and then there’s diversification. Sometimes they overlap, but they’re not the same thing. Tier 2…and definitely Tier 3, and many component companies, still attempt to fit everyone into a single head and a few shafts. The market has outgrown that model.

      Something to consider…when little guys tell you that “we’re already at the USGA limit, so there’s nothing more to be done”. What they mean is, “without equivalent R&D budgets, we simply can’t compete with advancing technology”.

      So long story short…the USGA limit is hindrance, but it’s far from a hard stop on R&D advances.

      Reply

      Bob Renegar

      8 years ago

      Clearly, I have struck a nerve among many of the MGS readers with my observations regarding golf club R&D. Provoking thought and a broader discussion regarding what is going on in golf club R&D is my real objective here . . . because there are many different levels of product excellence offered to the consumer from our industry, and it would benefit all of us to understand the differences better.

      Despite some most professorial challenges to the presentation of my thoughts, nothing changes with respect to their validity. I did a Masters Thesis that was pure applied research into a virgin area many years ago, so I understand what is required to validate research in an academic setting, and I surely know what R&D is in a contemporary golf OEM setting.

      I am instead offering up my observations as an industry insider for more than 30 years – take them or leave them – they are factually correct and not driven by any agenda or animosity for one particular part of the business or another or one brand or another.

      Many of the guys who lead R&D in the OEMs are colleagues of mine, so I would not suggest a hierarchy of excellence for any brands – that would only be my private opinion and irrelevant to this discussion.

      It is clear too from these comments that many MGS readers commenting on my writings are using the terms of R&D, club design, and manufacturing execution interchangeably. They are three very different things, and using them interchangeably only confuses the discussion.

      My points in the article are fairly simple. REAL R&D is only occurring in a hand full of top tier companies. The second tier is still developing products through “undisciplined experimentation” like all of the OEMs were doing 20 years ago. And the third tier is largely faking it with BS marketing hyperbole, good websites, and claims of manufacturing excellence.

      Component suppliers are in a different segment of the business entirely from the golf equipment companies as I see it. (I did not choose the photos for inserts into the story.) Tom Wishon is a friend of mine from our days as colleagues on the Golf Digest Technical Panel. I intentionally did not comment on these guys in any way, as far as I can tell, but I will tell you for certain there are “pretenders” in this segment as well and some others who are doing a good job with original thought and good quality product offerings.

      AND surprise, there is also predictably a hierarchy of supplier-vendors in the business providing club head manufacturing and assembly (mostly in China). The larger OEMs generally use the better suppliers, and the smaller tiers do not have sufficient sales volumes to get the attention of the better suppliers.

      With regard to the Japanese brands . . . guess where most have their club heads made . . . wait for it . . . China! The exceptions to that are the Japanese forgings that are so highly revered, which are fairly well made but rarely represent anything special from a design standpoint. There are actually BETTER forgings now coming from . . . wait for it again . . . China! They are 5 step “precision forgings” that are more consistently produced.

      Hey, it’s your money and your golf game – I’m just interested in helping you out by making sure you know more about what you are buying.

      If you think this was fun – wait ’til you read Part Three and Part Four . . .

      Bob Renegar

      Reply

      Paul

      8 years ago

      Bob,

      I can’t speak for everyone but your comment of “take it or leave it” was really off putting and ignorant.

      It is that “smug” attitude from the golf community that companies like Taylor made are losing millions. Also, why so many previous private courses have gone public. And others who refused to drop their “CEO – type” fees to sell the property to real estate developers.

      We asked golf club makers to lower the prices and they refused. In fact, they increased them in some cases. We are speaking with our wallets (or what is left of them after taxes). Taylor made will not be the only company to “close up shop”.

      What you and “your friends” need to stress is the game is from 150 yards and in. Maybe more lessons in order to hit their older, still very useful, clubs better. The money spent on that new driver should be spent on lessons, 2 good wedges and a good balanced putter. My friend has ping “eye 2” irons and he is a scratch golfer. He got that way by spending money on lessons, not buying new tier 1 equipment.

      Your article is meant to be subjective and giving us real advice all encompassing. By showing us what companies are in what tier, helps others to do our research and choose what equipment they like.

      For instance, I use Taylor made woods, Ping irons (including putter) and vokey wedges. I am assuming they are tier 1 but I use them because I love the feel of them.

      We can choose to use Wilson forged irons (best irons I every hit) vs Callaway (first tier).

      I will read your other parts but we (not everyone) are asking you to make the tiers as an education. It is also your job as a writer to write a full article. If you are unwilling to upset friends, you are doing everyone including yourself a very big disservice to our fellow golfers.

      Maybe you could have a chat with your friends in the industry, and make the game more affordable. Maybe leave writing articles like this to others who want to give the best information out there and don’t want us to “take it or leave it”.

      You have all that information to share of 30 years in the golf industry and you are unwilling to share it with us fellow golfers. Really a damn shame!!

      I thought Golf Spy was for the little guy, who wants full information the newest happenings in the golf world. Maybe I am wrong!!

      Cheers

      Reply

      Duncan Castles

      8 years ago

      Thanks for replying Bob. Two points:

      1) You write: “Component suppliers are in a different segment of the business entirely from the golf equipment companies as I see it.”
      You may see it that way, but I think most people will be wondering what a golf equipment component supplier company like Wishon Golf is if it is not a golf equipment company!

      2) You write: “My points in the article are fairly simple. REAL R&D is only occurring in a hand full of top tier companies. The second tier is still developing products through “undisciplined experimentation” like all of the OEMs were doing 20 years ago. And the third tier is largely faking it with BS marketing hyperbole, good websites, and claims of manufacturing excellence.”
      That point remains dependent on your rather idiosyncratic definition of a golf equipment company, but let’s leave that be.
      I think what has irritated a lot of readers is that you went well beyond that point by recommending we only buy our golf equipment from Tier 1 and occasionally Tier 2 companies. I quote again: “My advice to you on choosing golf equipment – buy your clubs from the larger OEM tier whenever you can, and focus mostly on the identity products from the second tier.”
      Sorry, but that’s just plain poor advice, both in terms of club design and quality/consistency of the purchased product.

      Reply

      Davel

      8 years ago

      I would love to see head to head comparisons between the latest clubs and the clubs of 3, 4, 5 or even 10 years ago from all the club makers. The clubs today feel longer than my clubs of a couple of years ago but is that really true?

      Reply

      Tony

      8 years ago

      Where would Miura irons rank with this cautionary tale? Not brand X with large R&D staff so their irons would be considered less desirable. Is that how you feel?

      Reply

      Jules Coleman

      8 years ago

      I have read the article several times and every comment at least once, and frankly I remain puzzled largely because it is hard to sort out the claims being made on all sides, the evidence offered in support of each of them, not to mention the actual scope and depth of disagreement. Let’s list some of the claims made, whether in the article (BR) or in the comments (C) and whether the claims are made explicitly (E) or implicitly (I). Let’s also check on whether there is evidence presented (Y) (or in some cases) whether necessary is actually necessary (NN), and if no evidence is presented (NE). For the purposes of this discussion it is not sensible to treat self reported anecdotes as evidence. Claims that are vague are indicated with (V) and call for additional clarification.
      1. Large OEMS have more money to spend on R&D on all phases of design including choice and use of materials individually and in conjunction with one another. (BR) first part (E )second part (I)
      (NN).
      2. This correlation between investment in r&D and potential quality of the club is statistically significant. NE presented but for the purposes of the argument we can accept it, because this is NOT the key claim!
      3. This is a key claim. As a general matter companies that invest more in R&D are likely to produce better clubs than those who spend less (in absolute dollars). (V), NE, E, BR.
      It is key but unsubstantiated in several ways. Let’s agree that for each company that produces golf clubs of whatever quality that were they to spend more on R&D their clubs would be better. The key point to note is that this is a claim about the clubs offered within a company, not a claim about the relative quality of clubs across companies!!! It also has nothing to do with absolute dollars spent, makes no claim about the diminishing marginal value of the incremental expenditures after a certain point, nor does it make a claim about the value to the consumer relative to the incremental increase in cost of the club. And I could surely go on as to what is not being conveyed. Let’s just focus on two imaginary companies at time T; let’s call them Callaway and Ben Hogan. If we accept (3), that just means that were Callaway to invest more in R&D going forward then we should expect them to produce better clubs now than they have in the past. Similarly were Ben Hogan to spend more in R&D going forward than they have till now, we should expect to see improvements in their clubs. Let’s also assume that Callaway spends more than Ben Hogan does now, and that that will continue going forward.

      It should be obvious to anyone who knows anything about problems in interpersonal comparability, that it is not legitimate to draw any inference from these premises to the conclusion that Callaways expenditures in R&D imply that their clubs are better now or will be better going forward than are Hogans. It is no more natural to conclude that Callaway makes a better club than Hogan for this reason than it would make sense to infer that they will make better clubs going furward, or that Hogan who has spent less on R&D today than Callaway probably did 5 years ago that Callaway clubs of 5 years ago (or even longer) surpass even the best offerings of Hogan today.

      There are many reasons why such inferences are foolish. First and foremost, while some of the IP associated with club design is legally protected, enforcement is expensive and often irrational. So that means that all but the most valuable IP is available to anyone, thus many of the initial costs of R&D have been borne by early entrants. The new kids on the block can almost costlessly take advantage of that. This means, smaller budgets can go farther. There is so much more to say on this, but it would only be of interest to those like me who have spent lives engaged in practices of peer review. Mr. Renegar is obviously knowledgeable and his article is designed to reach a wide audience, but my oh my it would never pass muster as an argument in favor of a thesis — and the comments, however all over the map they may be, do from time to time express the kinds of doubts a serious peer reviewer would have.

      4. R&D expenditures are likely to produce better performance. (BR) NE, Unacceptably vague
      By better performance BR can either mean ‘in principle’ or ‘in practice’. If he means ‘in principle’ then this just amounts to another way of saying that they are theoretically better clubs, and if true, necessarily so, and thus it makes no interesting claim at all. If he means in practice, then surely this is a claim that calls for evidence. None has been offered; and many of the comments suggest that their experience does not support the claim.

      As I have said in an earlier comment, lots of heat here; very little light

      Reply

      John

      8 years ago

      This article was good to read and the posts were great to read. My only problem with this article is that it takes more than R&D to build a good golf club. It takes finding the right foundry to manufacture the design, the right shaft choice and the right quality control to make sure that the built clubs perform like the R&D prototypes. MGS says the Tier 1’s produce the best clubs due to the money they spend on R&D. I will agree to some extent, but I am a custom fitter and I see stuff coming out of Tier 1’s that need to be completely rebuilt because the quality control is not very good. If you take a great design that only a tier one, with their huge budget, could come up with, and then try to manufacture it at the lowest possible cost then you have a good design that doesn’t perform. I think smaller companies, who have designs that may be less ideal, but have better quality control can compete with poor execution of a superior design. The point is it takes all phases of design, manufacturing technology and quality control to make a good performing Club. Sure, if you take the best design, custom fit it for the golfer and build it to exacting tolerances (which is what I do) then you will have a better performing club. But what I see coming off the rack from the Tier 1’s is hit or miss.

      A great future article for MGS is to compare a set of clubs sent in for test by a Tier 1 to 4 other sets randomly purchased from 4 different golf stores.

      Reply

      John Dee

      8 years ago

      The fact is McIlroy/Day/Speith to name just a few, could rip a paling off a fence and hit it further than the rest of us mere mortals.
      Get over it.
      Play in immaculate surroundings on a Spring ,Autumn , Summer or Winter morning to the best of your abilities and rue the missed opportunities later over a couple of cold beers….ahh…bliss.
      Repeat.

      Reply

      ssops00

      8 years ago

      All one needs to do is visit a Wishon Fitter and get custom fit to Wishon Irons (771CSI’s for example) go understand that this article is way off base. Tom WIshon has forgotten more than most club designers know. Proper fitting is the most important part of proper golf equipment performance.

      Reply

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      “Tom Wishon has forgotten more than most club designers know”

      This is such an amazingly ignorant post. It’s the very definition of absurd and the only reason why I’m even responding is that it’s the type of mindless gibberish that gets repeated over and over again as if it was fact.

      It’s not.

      Tom Wishon has done some good work in the design space, and he’s literally written the book (books actually) on club fitting, but to suggest that his design mind is unquestionably superior to that of the guys at PING, Callaway, Cobra, and even TaylorMade, it’s foolishness of the highest order. Again…you have no idea the level of research that goes on in those places…you have no idea how bit the sample sizes are…how big the data pool is. You repeat silly little one liners without a moments thought to what big OEMs can learn and develop with a THIRTY TWO MILLION DOLLAR R&D BUDGET.

      It’s also amazingly interesting how defensive the Wishon-ites are. Nobody involved in writing, editing and publishing Bob’s post mentioned Tom Wishon, but you guys are so afraid somebody might try and discredit him that you’re jumping out of your skin to defend against an attack that wasn’t made.

      End of the day…Tom Wishon is a smart guy, but he’s just one of very many.

      Reply

      Gisle Solhaug

      8 years ago

      I do not understand what the tier 1 golf club manufacturers do with the millions they spend on R&D. It cannot possibly be in scientific research. Maybe they are researching what colors to use next month. I think it is more geared towards marketing. The only thing high tech in the tier 1 golf industry is marketing. I recently had a long meeting with the technical director of a tier 1 golf club manufacturer. He had no understanding of the physics of golf. He even mentioned Swingweight as a critical factor. Anyone that has ever studied physics, even at high school level, should understand that Swingweight, today, is utter nonsense.
      Very little scientific research has gone into the development of golf equipment. Advancement in golf is typically made by coincidence and trial and error; only some years later will someone rationalize the physics that explains the phenomenon (Zumerchik, 2010). An example is the offset driver. The golf industry explains that by positioning the hosel of the driver slightly forward, relative to the club head face, the golfer will have more time to close the driver head in the downswing and thereby avoid a slice. In reality, the degree of closing of the driver in the impact zone over a distance of 5 mm, which is the typical amount of offset, is ignorable and of no consequence. The reason that an offset driver is more closed at impact, compared to a non-offset driver, is that the distance between the center of the shaft and the center of gravity of the clubhead is increased. Thereby increasing the moment that bends the shaft forward during the downswing, causing the clubhead to impact the ball in a more lofted and closed position. Such simple and straightforward reflections based on physics are not appreciated by the golf industry in general. So what do the millions of R&D dollars go to? It is sometimes heard during technical discussions regarding golf; we are in the entertainment business, not scientific research.

      Most advances in golf equipment over the last century are based on new developments in materials. The introduction of new materials to the golf industry is typically done by trial and error by enthusiasts rather than scientists. New materials are normally introduced as a consequence of developments in materials in industry in general rather than being developed by the golfing industry. For example, the use of carbon fiber and titanium was introduced in golfing equipment long after they had been established as alternative materials in other industries. Even fishing rods were made of carbon fiber long before it was used in golf clubs.
      In the early twentieth century, golfers found that their ball would travel further if its surface were worn and rough. Some golfers, therefore, started to roughen the surface of their golf balls. After some time, this led to the introduction of the dimpled ball. Before that, the balls had a smooth surface. Only about 80 years later, the golf industry was able to understand the physics involved in the phenomenon and further optimize the dimples (Zumerchik, 2010). This despite the fact that
      the Bernoulli’s Principle, which explains the lift, was published by Daniel Bernoulli in 1738. The principle is derived directly from Sir Isaac Newton´s second law of motion published in 1687.
      It would be difficult to find any other area in life, except maybe religion, where science is pretty much ignored. Amateur and professional golfers alike wear rubber bands on their wrists as they have been convinced that it will make them more flexible. This behavior is rarely seen in any other sport. Professional golfers routinely argue that it is better to miss the hole on the high side, as one can talk to a ball traveling on the high side but not on the low side. Even though, it is already understood that the putt was missed. It is this kind of mystique and ignorance discussed above, surrounding the game of golf, that keep irrational ideas such as Swingweight alive and in use even at the highest level of the game. Some years ago an article in Golf Digest stated that it appeared to be beyond the powers of modern technology to devise a scheme for matching golf clubs satisfactorily (Jorgensen, 1999). It seems that the golf industry in general pretty much has given up on science.
      Tier 1 Golf club manufacturers are in business to make money, not to improve the handicap of golfers.

      Reply

      Steve S

      8 years ago

      Glad you wrote this response. I have a friend who is a PhD mechanical engineer who has expressed similar thoughts. He makes the case about shaft flex is only important if loft is ignored. In other words an 90 mph swinger can use a X flex shaft if he marries it with a driver that has enough loft to get the optimal spin and launch angle. Because head velocity at impact is head velocity at impact and shaft flex doesn’t add enough speed to be measurable at impact.

      Reply

      Gisle Solhaug

      8 years ago

      Hi Steve,
      Your friend is correct, the importance of shaft flex is overrated. The industry refers to shaft kick, which adds about 4MPH to clubhead speed. However, as the clubhead makes contact with the ball the clubhead speed goes down, the shaft, therefore, straightens out and makes a backward kick which more than eliminates the shaft kick. Physics is simply ignored in the world of golf. By the way, I have a patent pending on a club that solves the above problem and provides a smash factor of 1.6 on a driver. I have prototypes approved by USGA.
      Gisle

      Steve S

      8 years ago

      I’m available for “field testing”.

      Justin

      8 years ago

      Me, too, if you have LH clubs…

      Gisle Solhaug

      8 years ago

      If I get there, I will let you know.

      Gisle Solhaug

      8 years ago

      I am not even a tier 3 golf club manufacturer, just an inventor. I need to marry my design to one of the tier 1 or 2 club manufacturers with the facilities I need to get the product to market. Any tier 1 club manufacturer can easily incorporate the method into their current drivers for a royalty fee. You would probably not be very impressed by my prototype design, but it does give a high smash factor, legally.

      BR

      8 years ago

      Interesting article and even more interesting comments….. Curious where does someone like Tom Wishon fall (i.e. tier 2/3)? I personally think he has good quality R&D considering he operates a small company. However his designs, design “firsts” seem to trump the high dollar is better R&D mentality…. Appreciate MGS doing this article series and very much like reading the comments.

      Reply

      Paul

      8 years ago

      So where is the list of companies and what tier are they are in? Totally useless article without that info.

      Paul

      Reply

      Ashton C Plumley

      8 years ago

      Great 2nd part. The hopes I would like to see eventually a list of each tier, will we see this?

      Reply

      Justin

      8 years ago

      Why? If a “tier 3” company outperforms a “tier 1”, wouldn’t you want to know that? Better yet. forget about “tiers”, or what works for people that aren’t you, and get what YOU like, what YOU can afford, and get it fitted? You’ll get more performance that way.

      Reply

      Paul

      8 years ago

      I am waiting for that too. This series would be useless and incomplete without such a list.

      He has alot if experience in the golf industry.

      So in his mind are the companies making the best equipment in regards to r&d.

      Too many golf writers don’t give their opinions on who is “delivering the goods” and who isnt.

      Reply

      Jeff Summitt

      8 years ago

      Next time you put in a picture to use an example for your story, please do your homework first. Brand Z is a well-balanced iron designed from scratch using CAD at our facility and not a “knock off” of a name brand company’s model. There is a high probability you have never seen the club in person nor hit hit to make an informed opinion. Secondly, make sure you are comparing clubs in similar categories. The TaylorMade M2 and Tour Edge Exotic EXd irons are both in the high-performance/distance category made of multi-materials and designed with strong lofts and a high-COR secondary face plate. If you wanted to show one of our irons, I would suggest our Dynacraft Prophet CB that is in the same product category; again an original design modeled in CAD and not a “knock off”.

      Jeff Summittt
      Technical Director
      Hireko Golf

      Reply

      mlecuni

      8 years ago

      +1

      Reply

      mcavoy

      8 years ago

      and somewhere Tony is saying to himself, “When I read posts like yours my thought is always the same…I wish I could bring this guy with me when I’m in the room with PING, Cobra, once upon a time Callaway. Again…the average guy has no idea.”

      Reply

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      I have no idea what your point is here. I would guess that Jeff is fully aware of Tier 1 R&D capabilities.

      While we certainly respect Jeff’s work nobody in his right mind would suggest that the R&D resources (including design and testing) are anywhere within the ballpark of what it is for the majority of Tier 1 products. I asked around…hard numbers, Callaway spent $32 Million dollars on just R&D last year. Not marketing…R&D.

      For the most part this has been a discussion about club development, and certain some of Callaway’s money is tied up in the ball, but how do you think that 32 million in R&D compares to the small designer/manufacturers. Maybe one of them will step up to share its R&D expenditures for comparative purposes.

      So if we bring this back to Bob’s article, it speaks to why Tier 2s (and indeed many Tier 3s) often specialize in certain segments, even in those cases where the company may offer a full line. When financial resources are limited, it makes sense to focus on your strengths.

      mcavoy

      8 years ago

      If we bring it back to Bob’s article he insinuated that Tier3 companies products are (and he used a component club to represent that):
      – “dumbed down copies”, which is false as it pertains to the larger component houses
      – made using inferior materials. Again false. Their products are made from 431SS, 17-4SS, carbon steel forgings and titanium for drivers.
      – dismissed their design efforts as those of “garage tinkerers” with NO real R&D”. Which is also false. They may not have as many R&D resources as the OEM’s but why would they? They tend not to introduce new models as often as the OEM’s as a result. And I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing.
      – called the component companies incompetent. “So how do they (the weaker R&D groups and the “garage tinkers”) get away with this incompetence?” What incompetence are you referring to? Please explain the incompetence of Tom Wishon’s designs. Or Ralph Maltby’s.
      The disparaging remarks made regarding the component companies (Tier3) were clearly not directed at those who have taken the time to familiarize themselves with them. Rather they were intended to scare anyone who might consider them to think they are throwing their money away on junk. This is simply not the case.
      Bob Renegar is clearly a guy with an agenda. When he has to resort to insults of his own (incompetence anyone?) and obvious falsehoods to support his argument the credibility of the entire post comes into question. Renegar’s embarrassed himself with this post. Given what he cites will be the subject matter of the third installment he’s putting himself in position to go one further.

      Justin

      8 years ago

      It’s a simple slap in the face of all of the companies with lower profits, less ad money to throw around. Plain and simple.

      Anyone with a pulse can tell you that the name on the sole doesn’t equate to scores. Ever see the guy with the $3000 set of clubs (all the same brand) and matching “staff” bag, but can’t hit the ball worth a crap? Where’d all that money spent get him?

      I use me as an example. I’ve broken 80 multiple times with an Acer driver, irons and putter, Diamond Tour Golf 3 wood and hybrids and Reid Lockhart wedges. If we follow the articles non-sense, I shouldn’t have even come close to breaking 100, because we all know now (sarcasm alert) that money spent = better scores. How did I do that? How do others do it?

      Here’s the only three questions you need to ask yourself before buying golf clubs:

      1. Do you like them?
      2. Can you afford them?
      3. Are you going to get them fitted (or retrofitted, if you buy used off of someplace like ebay)?

      That’s it. After that, it’s up to you and your abilities.

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      Yes…very often dumbed down…or I suppose you could say dumbed-up as a means to suggest modest improvements. In many cases, Tier 3 guys start with open molds (basically somebody in China designed the base head) and then they make subtle tweaks…rounding edges, thinning or thickening top lines, etc.. This creates a new design – albeit, not from scratch, but yes…patent-able just the same.

      As for inferior materials…perhaps a little clarity was needed. Raw 17-4 is all the same…heat treatments vary (time and temperature), an adherence to those tolerances vary too. We tend to think of tolerances in terms of loft, lie, and weight, but there’s also tolerances for temperate and cook time. Those differences don’t show up when you stick clubs on a gauge, but they matter. So yeah….in reality, all 17-4 may be created equally, but it’s not finished equally.

      Assembly capabilities are not the same either. Take Cobra’s F6+ driver…it’s an extremely complex design, multiple pieces, made from multiple materials. Most foundries…the ones Tier 3 guys use, don’t have those capabilities…don’t have the tooling experts, etc..

      More money buys access to more advanced resources and capabilities. This should be obvious-enough.

      Nobody here wrote that Wishon and Maltby are garage tinkerers…

      I think your issue with Bob is that he’s questioning your very belief structure. For whatever reason you’ve bought into the mythology that a small company (1 or 2 designers) who doesn’t spend on marketing can achieve equivalent or even superior results despite a development budget and access to resources that’s order of magnitude smaller.

      joro

      8 years ago

      Tony I read these posts and your comments all the time and what I have found after 50 yrs in this business as a Player, teacher, club maker and now part time club repair is that newer is not always better. Stronger lofts? yes, Longer in shaft length? yes, lighter in weight? yes, and more and more spent on Marketing to sell the latest and greatest. They can call it millions spent on R%D if they want, but it is still marketing, or really convincing the buyer they have to have it.

      But what amazes me is that not much has changed over the years for the average Golfer. Sure they hit it farther, after all todays PW is yesterdays 8 Iron. The Ball has changed also to go farther, so I guess you could call it R&D. Irons and woods today are much easier to hit and that is thanks to R&D and there are new materials, but it is basically the same thing. Lets face it, Ping Eye 2 set the std. and they are still copying them today.

      Thom Bendtsen

      8 years ago

      “Irons and woods today are much easier to hit” you say, but r&d is just marketing? You have just disproved your point.
      Honestly, if you don’t think equipment matters, this is directed to everybody here joro, not just you; why do you even read this website?
      These are some of the most bizarre responses to an article I have ever seen.

      Hmmmm

      8 years ago

      Intelligence goes farther than money.

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      Yes it does, but do you honestly believe R&D departments are staffed by idiots? Some marketing departments maybe, but not in R&D. We’re talking about teams of very very smart guys working for all of the big guys with access to tools and sample sizes worth of data the small guys can only dream about. So yeah…I’ll take the team of smart guys with millions of dollars of money, over one or two smart guys with not much money every day of the week.

      Ken Mackay

      8 years ago

      JEFF I have to agree. After working in a pro shop and having access to a launch monitor I found little to no difference between clubs in the same type designed dare I say it for the game improver. Prior to being injured I was playing off single figures with a set of Hireko irons and still have them as after trialing many main brands and sets I could see no great difference.

      Reply

      Jules Coleman

      8 years ago

      For a discussion/debate to be meaningful, one has to characterize what the dispute is about — what is being contested — in a way that most if not all of the disputants accept. Otherwise the parties are likely talking past one another. In my field (philosophy), this is the question of what is the scope of agreement (if any) that is required in order for disagreements to be genuinely meaningful. It is not clear to me that the discussion/debate we are having amounts to much more than talking past one another. And that makes for a lot of heat but very little light being shed on the underlying issue. So lets try to agree that there are a number of factors — a very large number in fact — that contribute to a golfer’s performance on the course. One of those factors is clearly the clubs he or she uses. Another is the ball he uses; the courses he plays; his ability to play; his or her mental toughness; practice habits; the conditions under which she plays those courses; and so much more. All of these factors are contributors to success or failure. It is hard to take issue with this claim. So we can agree on that. And that may be enough for us to disagree meaningfully and thus to present useful evidence in support of our claims as regards any claim about the relative importance of any of these factors to a golfers actual performance.
      We can also agree that insofar as clubs matter, the materials, design, execution of that design, playability of the club and more matter. Now we can disagree about the relative importance of those factors. Certainly playability matters a great deal once a certain threshold has been met with regard to other parameters. Of course we might disagree about what constitutes playability and whether playability is entirely subsumed under other factors. That is a dispute for another occasion perhaps. Though playability may be a disputed category of its own, it can be refined to be significant whether fully independent or not, e.g. playable by robots, by tour players, by single digit handicappers, anyone of reasonable dexterity or anyone at all. And so on. We are narrowing our way to the at least one explicit claim made in the article by Mr. Renegar whose wedges I played with my typical level of modest success for two years. Namely that insofar as clubs matter, research and development matter; and insofar as research and development matter, dollars spent on research and development matter. Frankly, I find it hard to disagree with that statement, though it could be refined some for clarity. I am sure that Mr. Renegar does not intend to claim that there is a necessary connection between money spent on research and quality of what is preduced, only that there is a statistically significant correlation between the two. That is perfectly compatible with less money producing better designs and loads of money producing less good, even bad designs. He would not have to reject this perfectly plausible claim in order to stand by his claim that money matters in R&D. Now it would be interesting to know why money matters in R&D and that is because at least some of the impact that money has can be captured in some other way. If the difference having money makes is that it makes it possible to test more concepts — including moonshots — viable and thus reduces the importance of time consuming initial filtering, a company with less cash and more focus on judgment can filter out a lot of low probability of success paths. Indeed, money is no substitute for judgment in any endeavor — with the possible exception of running for political office . I suspect that the advantages of having big research budgets are too numerous for all of them to be capturable in some other way; still the impact of money as such should not be overstated.
      If this were all that Mr. Renegar claimed, then it would be hard to explain some of the vitriol with which his claim has been met.
      I suspect that the vast majority of his critics take him to be making at least one other and much more controversial claim — namely, that the design advantage that money creates translates into better performance. This claim is at least as ambiguous as it is controversial. Performance for whom? By whom? Robots, average golfers, touring pros. There are as we noted a number of factors that bear on ultimate performance — and the one most important to the folks who buy clubs is their performance on the course under the conditions they normally face. There is little doubt that Mr. Renegar implies that R&D is a major contributor to performance and that the former is positively correlated with budgets. But he does not offer any evidence that R&D is positively correlated with the performance of the players who use them; or more importantly what the order of magnitude of their importance is – relative to any number of other factors.
      I may well be mistaken, but when all is said and done, Mr. Renegar is making a very plausible observation that we should all be prepared to agree with (that money is correlated with R&D sophistication and advances) but inviting us to accept the conclusion that this translates into differences in performance of those who use the clubs — a claim he has provided no evidence for. At the same time, many of those who criticize him nearly unmercifully are probably best understood as advancing a view that he probably accepts as well (that the order of magnitude of importance of R%D budgets on the actual performance of players under normal conditions for them is probably a good deal less than any number of factors far outside the reach of even the most well funded R&D team). If there is a real dispute here, I am not sure I have been able to identify what it is.

      Reply

      Duncan Castles

      8 years ago

      Hmmm. More ‘big is best’ propaganda from Mr Renegar.
      “My advice to you on choosing golf equipment – buy your clubs from the larger OEM tier whenever you can, and focus mostly on the identity products from the second tier.”
      I note that the author didn’t answer a question about his first article as to which tier he’d place Wishon Golf in. Which is interesting because my personal advice to anyone serious about buying clubs that will improve their game is to steer clear of the likes of TaylorMade and find a skilled club builder who can analyse your swing and fit clubs to it built from the component level up. You can get higher quality components, manufactured to tighter tolerances, and – crucially – fitted precisely to your swing characteristics for less money than the OEM products.
      It won’t have an OEM brand name, but then you won’t have wasted your cash on the OEM’s marketing budget. If it’s a Wishon design, you’ll get technology that was invented, developed and deployed by a ‘non-tier’ company long before a ‘first tier’ OEM ripped it off.

      Reply

      andre

      8 years ago

      The talk about R&D by large OEM companies and the money they spend at it is just another marketing tool : they have to tell nice stories to a public that know nothing about golf clubs design. As a Taylor Made rep used to tell me : “you need visible thechnology, it is what makes sales.” So, the more screws, the better !
      OEMs spend much more in marketing than R&D, and their clubs are played by the best players on the Tour not because they are better, but because those players get paid to play those clubs. Also, you can spend whatever you want in R&D, the issue is not what you spend , but what you really can improve.

      Look at drivers. Due to USGA regulations , no driver with maximum COR and MOI can be more “powerful”, than any other one. So what is let ? Moving the center of gravity ? That might be better for golfer A and worse for golfer B. So, what really matters is the fitting, and there OEMs and big box are very, very far away from what good clubmakers can do.

      Reply

      Justin

      8 years ago

      Excellent response, Andre. I agree whole-heartedly.

      Reply

      stevegp

      8 years ago

      I am enjoying reading the series of articles and all of the comments.

      Like many of the readers, I have a good idea of which brands fall in the different tiers. However, as was suggested above, I am curious to know Mr. Renegar’s opinion of which brands he believes are in which tier.

      Reply

      LB

      8 years ago

      I see that MGS is now in the club selling business.
      Arnold Palmer equipment – classified by most as junk/bottom tier
      Ben Hogan – went in the shitter and is now Callaway
      Solus – a loser
      Renegar – re-branded Solus

      You may want to think about who you get for professional opinions on actual quality versus marketing budget.

      Reply

      Tom Conroy

      8 years ago

      I suppose yours qualifies as an opinion, albeit a grossly misinformed one.

      Don’t know about MGS’s motivation – I found the post informative – but beyond that, it’s as if your golf equipment history book begins in 1999 (give or take). Might be time to visit the library.

      1 – Arnold Palmer, legitimate equipment brand in its heyday.
      2 – Ben Hogan (original Ben Hogan) – ’tis true, in the shitter as you say, but not until after Mr. Hogan was gone and Callaway bought them (and did what they did).
      3 – Solus – such a loser that it’s sole design has been duplicated and modified several times over. Nearly every manufacturer that offers a broad spectrum of grinds has something based on the Solus design.
      4- Renegar wedge – evolved Solus I suppose, but if you actually took a closer look you’d see some reasonably significant difference…shape, offset, sole grind…otherwise, sure…the same.

      Look for yourself…the “PM Grind” wedges in Mickelson’s bag…they’re not the retail grind my friend, dead ringer for that “loser” Solus Grind.

      Reply

      Wayne O'Reilly

      8 years ago

      Scor golf is now Ben Hogan read this http://pluggedingolf.com/ben-hogan-tk-15-wedge-review/

      They make some great stuff Scor wedges were great.

      DC

      8 years ago

      First off, let’s see how long the Hogan line lasts. Scor probably cannot find the venture and keep the doors open, much less will they be able to staff 98 R and D experts to keep up with the big boys.

      Funny thing is, all of the authors ventures would put him squarely in the garage tinkerer spot, but that’s ok if you only focus on one thing…. Creative way to CYA.

      The major OEMs wouldn’t spend so much on R and D if they weren’t releasing a new line every three months, they constantly have to find new angles to tell the consumer why their 6 month old driver is now obsolete and this “new technology” is better. Take a look at drivers from 2002, you will find component companies ahead of the big companies in pushing the 460cc sizes. Fast forward to 2008 and again a component company comes up with an adjustable hosel so they can custom fit a driver with multiple shafts, USGA deems it illegal for use, then a major OEM designs one, $ talks, it’s all the rage right now. Carbon crowns, triangle, square shapes, even a cavity back driver, ahh yes, the OEM R and D results at their finest. Then after years of CG low and deep because it’s more forgiving, suddenly Taylor Made “discovers” that low and forward is actually LOWER spinning…. Umm yeah, hence why I quit buying OEM drivers for almost 10 years, because there was nothing but deep and low, which actually results in high launch and spin. So while that was “shocking” developments, the hype for sales is all that one came down to. Now we have a drive that claims to not have a CG, sure makes for some interesting physics, but I digress. Watch that same company “invent” single length irons too, hopefully they name them like Bryson, one should be Moe, one could be Armour, let’s not forget Lake, PinHawk or Sterling. If you don’t believe that the cost of R & D is not squarely related to the need to drive hype/ marketing campaigns, then you are out of touch. Thankfully the incompetance of the author of this story will only reach those consumers who research their purchase enough to know they ought to be buying Clean Diesels because all that new technology made them better than the old ones!

      Undershooter30

      8 years ago

      Dude almost nothing you have said is even true.

      1st off, Callaway does not own Ben Hogan Golf. The company that was Scor owns Ben Hogan and their irons and wedges are top quality equipment.
      Solus- Did you ever try one of their clubs?
      Renegar- Did you ever try one of their clubs?

      MGS is in the club testing business. If that means they like something and say so, leading to you buying it then great. Not exactly what I would call selling clubs but whatever.
      The fact that you are badmouthing Bob Renegar means you don’t know very much about the golf equipment industry, as your post confirms. You may want to stick to reading and keep the posting to a minimum for a while.

      Reply

      mcavoy

      8 years ago

      Oh lord, MGS you’ve really lost me here. So the iron that represents the 3rd tier “Z” model, the Acer XS from Hireko is inferior how? I have no problem with them being considered 3rd tier from a resources standpoint but when you mention probably “constructed from lower quality materials” what do you mean? Is the 431SS used in those somehow inferior to the 431SS used in countless OEM cast models? And just what is the Acer XS a dumbed down copy of? I should remind you that the Acer XS is probably about a 4 yr old model and you are showing it side by side two more recent models from the bigger OEM’s. So who is the plagiarist? And just what is the Acer XS supposed to be a copy of? I’ve played prettly much every major OEM over the years and a lot component stuff. I play pretty much whatever works and I can tell you the best of the 3rd tier companies is every bit as good as the big boys. I currently own 3 sets of irons – Srixon Z355, Acer XS Professional, and Dynacraft Prophet forged MB. Are the Srixon’s better because they are a major? I played the XS Professionals exclusively in 2014 and had probably my most consistent year ever and lowered my index to an all time low of 3.1. They are without a doubt one of the best irons I have ever played by any manufacturer. Would I have been a + hdcp w/Mizzy in the bag Bob? I have two sets of hybrids – Srixon H45 and Maltby KE-4 ST-H. Its a coin flip between what makes it in the bag. I have three 3 woods – Cally X-Hot, Dynacraft Avatar Evolution, Wilson Staff FG Tour. I would rank them 1,2,3 in that order. How on earth could that ghastly Dynacraft ever muscle its way in front of the WS? Doesn’t it know WS has won more majors than any other brand? 2 sets of wedges – WS FG Tour 50,54,58 and Maltby M-Series+ 50,54,58. WS gets the nod here but only because the shaft I put in the Maltby’s (FST Pro 125) is not a good wedge shaft IMO so MY BAD. Otherwise they would be #1. Probably should reshaft those. And lastly, the best driver I have ever used is a Dynacraft Avatar Evolution shafted w/a UST V2 high launch shaft. Best combination of distance and forgiveness I have ever used. I keep trying to replace it but it won’t give up. Gonna give the current crop of Titleist and TM a chance this year so we’ll see how it goes. Bob Renegar, you are an idiot with no credibility.

      Reply

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      It’s always personally disappointing to me when a regular reader resorts to name calling because he doesn’t agree with an opinion.

      I get it, you love your Hireko stuff. That said, I’d wager that with a proper fitting you’d pick up both yards, accuracy, and tighter dispersion moving to a bigger brand offering. We’ve tested the smaller brand stuff, and as much as we all love to see the little guy succeed, it’s rare that the product holds its own against big oem offerings in a proper test. There have been exceptions (particularly in the iron and wedge category), but for metalwoods, we’ve yet to find anything from a Tier 3 (even Tier 2 really) we’d recommend with any confidence.

      The average consumer has NO IDEA the testing big OEMs do on their products. It’s true…occasionally something gets rushed to market (chasing market share…trying to make quarterly numbers, etc..), but the level of robot (design) and player testing (performance) that happens at PING and Callaway for example absolutely is not matched by the smaller companies, and it absolutely matters. I’ve said this before it’s a numbers game. Big OEMs have much bigger budgets and while they may allocate a higher percentage of the total budget to marketing…I’d much rather have 6% for R&D from a 550 million business than 60% of a 1 million budget. All of this matters…development, testing, the entire R&D process.

      When I read posts like yours my thought is always the same…I wish I could bring this guy with me when I’m in the room with PING, Cobra, once upon a time Callaway. Again…the average guy has no idea.

      Mizuno…Wilson, I’d put them both solidly in the Tier 2 identity brand category. Both are full-line companies, but lets be honest about it, effectively they’re both iron companies whose woods and other offerings don’t really move the needle at any level.

      As for the man you called an idiot…Bob Renegar has been in the golf industry longer than a lot of the guys reading this have been on the planet. You may not agree with some of his opinions, but his credibility is beyond reproach, and I can tell you – having had several long conversations with Bob – he has one of the greatest golf equipment minds you’ll likely encounter.

      Reply

      Steve S

      8 years ago

      Since politicians resort to name calling others feel like it’s ok. I’m not sure when it happened but when someone doesn’t agree with your take they now are stupid, an idiot, etc.

      Love to see these folks in a face to face discussion, betcha there wouldn’t be a lot of name calling…..maybe.

      Shane

      8 years ago

      Tony,
      Sorry to hear you think as W/S woods as a Tier 2! In my hands at least, the new W/S F5 is a beast after I out an 11gm weight in it! In my hands I’d put it up against anything out today. I’ve played several and tried several lately but the F5 is a GREAT driver. I agree that W/S doesn’t spend TONS of advertisement money to make the big bold pages of GD, but if people only gave them a fair shake they’d see. I can still pull out my D200 and spank nearly all of the weekly group I play with and smile when they ask, what is that? And as for Mizuno, they’re one of the best irons out bar none, especially for top level amateurs, even appear in some of the top LPGA bags.

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      It’s not so much what I think, it’s what the numbers say the reality is. Wilson’s market share is less than 4% in most categories, woods get next to zero play on tour (a good indicator for Tier 2 is the number of professional staffers who play woods or irons from competitors), and perhaps most telling – the R&D staff can be counted on less than 2 hands. That’s not to say Wilson doesn’t make some good products…nearly every Tier 2 has some good products, but the reality is that while marketing spend helps sell products, R&D spend helps create better products. Even if the average Tier 2 company devoted 50% more of its budget to R&D than a Tier 1 (they don’t, but for the sake of example…) the actual dollars spent on R&D is still SUBSTANTIALLY less than it is at Tier 1.

      People can make the “They spend all their money on marketing” argument all day long, but other than the fact that it’s actually not true, even if a company like Callaway, PING, TaylorMade, etc., etc., etc. spends more on marketing than Tier 2s, it absolutely does not change the fact that those same companies also spend SUBSTANTIALLY more on R&D. Marketing isn’t the reason why PING has consistently produced the most forgiving drivers in golf. Marketing isn’t the reason why Cobra has continued to push CG locations farther back. And as much as I roll my eyeballs at the ads, Marketing isn’t the reason why PING and Callaway have been able to squeeze a bit more performance through aerodynamics. All these things matter and they require actual R&D to achieve.

      While we have consistently found good to very good products from Tier 2 (and even 3 companies), we also don’t think it’s a coincidence that in 3 years of Most Wanted driver testing, and in the first year of iron testing, clubs from Tier 1 companies have come out on top every single time.

      gthom

      8 years ago

      If I remember, didn’t MGS recommend the Powerbuilt Air Force One driver a few years ago? It may have even finished first in the rankings? Now Powerbuilt is certainly not a tier one company, more like a Kmart company in recent years,like the last 20.

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      PowerBilt’s drivers have performed admirably, but they’ve never won one of our tests outright. While PowerBilt (now actually DBA Air Force One Golf) has close to a full line, they are a textbook Tier 2. Essentially, the business has a clear strength…one thing it does well, inarguably better than it does anything else. For AFO, that’s clearly the driver. Mizuno…irons, Tour Edge…fairway woods.

      Bob didn’t say Tier 2 is inferior across the board, what he said was that these companies have specific strengths and areas of concentration. Effectively they have their niche, and consumers are best served buying those products that align with a Tier 2 company’s strengths.

      George Panoussis

      8 years ago

      So where do Japanese Golf Club manufacturers fit in all of this ? I would say they manufacture products of higher tolerance, the finish and materials used are far superior to any top 5 OEMs . Surely the design budgets would be hugely diferent, yet the end products do not show this .

      Reply

      Teletext

      8 years ago

      I have been involved in all aspect of this industry for over 50 years. One piece of advice I have always passed on to retailers is if they can,to check every set of new irons they receive into their shop, whether they be custom made of “standard” specs. I currently do and have done repairs for probably 4/5 or the Brand X companies in our country for a number of years. I must admit that their products have improved spec wise but most still leave a lot to desired.
      An example was I got a set of 8 irons (standard specs)to bend 2o flat from one of the top companies. On checking and double checking the set ranged from standard spec to 4o flat. Their R and D might have been great but their quality control was atrocious.
      Doesn’t matter how much money you spend on R and D, if your quality control is rubbish then the end product will be as well.
      Another example was was a Brand X company decided to add a game improvement iron to their range. It turned out to be one of the worst game improvement irons ever made.
      I have had the privilege to have spent some time with Ralph Maltby and would rate him as one of the best designers of all time. Don’t forget that Tom Wishon worked for Ralph as well.
      Ralph came up with the Maltby Playability Factor (MPF) with which it is possible to grade clubs, playability wise. An excellent system that was never taken up by the industry because it didn’t suit most of their agendas.

      Reply

      Dr No

      8 years ago

      I used the Maltby Playability Factor in a simplistic way. I asked it for the most forgiving irons made. The best were the Maltby components that were no longer available, but most of the top 20 were Callaway irons. I found Callaway Fusion Wide Sole irons used and bought a set, adding a few to make a 3-SW set. They are the most forgiving irons I ever hit. Ralph’s system works for me.

      Reply

      Jules Coleman

      8 years ago

      I take it that the real issue is not about whether R&D makes a difference, nor is it whether the quality of an OEM’s R&D is positively correlated with its (research) budget, but the order of magnitude of importance to the quality of one’s golf performance the differences in the quality of design potentially makes — certainly as compared to a wide range of other factors that we can agree contribute to a golfer’s on course performance. I am not familiar with anyone claiming that the design of a golf club is not affected by the quality of R&D or that the quality of R&D is positively correlated with resources devoted to R&D. If anything, those who believe that so-called specialty companies — e.g. Edel, Ben Hogan — create ‘better clubs’ than Titleist, Callaway or Taylormade, among others — are inclined to the view that the small premium brands do a better job of executing their designs, that their manufacturing tolerances are more stringent, and that those companies offer to the club golfer the sort of personalization that the larger OEMs offer only to their Tour Staff. And there is more: for all we know, a slightly less sophisticated design might be more tolerant of differences in execution and thus perform better overall than would a better designed club that requires much more fine grained excellence in manufacturing in order to secure the benefits of its design. So a the least it is a matter of design and manufacturing.
      If we ignore that the club one ends up with is the result of both design and manufacture, and focus only on design, there is some reason to believe that the largest companies are not in a position to take full advantage of their R&D results; after all, their business models depend on large numbers of sales and that may mean toning down what could be a Ferrari in performance to a more easily manufactured sports sedan, e.g. a Bentaly coupe.
      As far as I can tell the author, though obviously very knowledgeable, is arguing against a straw man.

      Reply

      Leith Anderson

      8 years ago

      It would add interesting detail to the article for the author to name and rank the companies that fall into each class – at least by his opinion. The industry is so small that shouldn’t be too hard. One company I’m thinking he must place in the second tier is Mizuno – reliant on irons and never much for woods – despite a lot of effort with some credible results lately. Another curious company is Srixon – where would Mr. Renegar place them?

      One issue that has been cleaned up a bit lately is the exploitation by the major OEM’s with their scale that permitted pairing cheaper “made for” shafts with their obviously state-of-the-art heads to deliver profit margins that keep stock prices (and “going public” hopes) alive. More recently, the quality of “made for” shafts has been rising – in some cases even delivering pure “aftermarket quality”.

      I would love to see Mr. Renegar turn his attention to the shaft companies. It would be very interesting to know the actual cost and performance difference in shafts that cost $50 versus shafts that cost $500.

      Reply

      Jonny B

      8 years ago

      I second your comments on shafts. Is there really anything to be gained from the expensive offerings? I’ve tried 3 different shafts over the years in my 3 wood (Mizuno F60 which will never leave my bag). The one I keep coming back to is the UST ProForce V2. For my money – best shaft for metal woods in golf.

      Reply

      Steve S

      8 years ago

      Another thought that just occurred to me. Ralph Maltby has been using science and engineering in club design and evaluation for many years. Not sure what “tier” he belongs in but I think he may be an “outlier” in this discussion. I have purchased many of his clubs over the years and found them to be as good as any name brands.

      Reply

      Dwayne

      8 years ago

      I agree with you. I played with Maltby metalwoods in the early 90’s, with titanium shafts, ha! those were great clubs.

      Does Snake Eyes go to the tier with the brand Zs too, what about KZG, Bang, Krank, etc?

      Reply

      Johnson

      8 years ago

      The new Titleist wedge has borrowed from stability features of fourteen and SYard. Small companies do have winners.

      Reply

      Jonny B

      8 years ago

      Thanks for this article. I really am enjoying this series.

      I was wondering if you could speak to the random offerings that seem to come out at certain golf retailers that are not a standard product offering from the major OEMs but have their name and logos stamped on them. For example, the Taylormade R5XL irons, or RBZ Tour irons, that you won’t find on TM’s site but will find only available at Golf Galaxy or TGW. Same question applies for balls like the Maxfli lineup.

      Reply

      Steve S.

      8 years ago

      Interesting take on the different tiers of companies. Having used some of the 3rd tier companies equipment my response to the article is a guarded “ok?” My experience is that with my swing speed (driver at 95mph) I saw little to no difference in what I call “high quality” knock off irons (like Giga Golf). Maybe because until the last year or two there wasn’t much technology in irons. Drivers seem to be a different story but even there I haven’t seen a measurable difference(in my score). BUT, I do agree that I can get the name brands for the same price point(as knock offs) if i just wait 6 months to a year before buying.

      One last thing….none of my testing of drivers shows any more length with new technology. Obviously everyone has reached max limits. The thing I have seen is differences in forgiveness to off center hits which is the most important thing to me now.

      Reply

      STEVE deJesus

      8 years ago

      I see many golfers with expensive first line clubs that should have spent the money on lessons. Of course there is a difference between supermarket clubs and top quality clubs but marketing expensive cure all clubs to people that don’t break a hundred is criminal. No different than the cosmetics industry selling all manner of products to gullible people searching for the unattainable youth/ beauty. This article is certainly true but should be directed at the low handicapper. The majority of golfers wouldn’t know MOI from Shinola and should be encouraged to spend their hard earned money on lessons and not the latest and greatest cure all clubs from the major manufacturers, but that wouldn’t sell clubs now would it.

      Reply

      Doug Scott

      8 years ago

      Having GOD like R and D is great but if your manufacturing process DOES NOT put the sweet spot near the correct location of the club face what is the point?

      Reply

      Paul Kerin

      8 years ago

      No golf club can significantly improve ones game and no machine can feel how the ball comes off the face.

      Reply

      MyGolf Spy

      8 years ago

      Not true in the slightest.

      Reply

      Sharkhark

      8 years ago

      Really? After shoulder surgery I just got taylormade rsi 2 irons in graphite. The graphite lessens the shock but more importantly the design is supposedly forgiving to low on the face and it is.
      I find that I pick the ball & the design has given me results that are much better than all my previous irons.
      The slots supposedly correct and soften a slightly poorer swing. Again, yes it’s been my experience with them. You if a good golfer can tell when you didn’t give 100% but get better results.

      Reply

      Steve S.

      8 years ago

      Really? If so you must be playing with persimmon woods and 1960’s blades with steel shafts.

      Reply

      Ryan Holcomb

      8 years ago

      10 strokes is too arbitrary to be making generalized claims. Course conditions, weather etc will have more of an effect.

      Reply

      Jeramy Rhoden

      8 years ago

      Not one to chime in very often but, my golf spy made me look at my old clubs a year and half ago because they had an article on Adams MB’s I bought them relying on their stat of improvements and feel. I was using old Titleist blended CMB’s I considered myself an average player shooting 85-87 consistanly I made the switch and shot 75 my first round and held at 74-77 ever since I’m now a 4.3 HNDCP So I think that significant change is totally possible by club choice Only reason I like a blade is I grew up on and started playing with Hogan Apex hand me downs Can’t stand the thick look of ping or any cavity back Anyway just wanted to speak up, not too many truthful people do anymore. Thanks

      Reply

      George P.

      8 years ago

      Absolutely False! If you believe that, you haven’t tried a lot of different golf equipment. There can be a HUGE difference from club to club. Trackman data will confirm that.

      Reply

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