Drivers

MyGolfSpy Labs – Your Distance Reality Check!

BY MyGolfSpy
May 22nd 2012
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Question: How far do you hit the ball (on average) with your driver? Think about that for a second and then say that number out loud or write it down.

Question #2: Ok…now…how far do you really hit your driver? Now write that number down. Do they look the same?

If so…you’re most likely lying to yourself. Yes you. I’m sure we all know some other guy (or quite a few) that lies through his teeth about how far he hits the big stick. But question is…are you lying too?

Well…from what we found in our latest “MyGolfSpy Labs” research…you might be surprised how many people are lying about how far they hit the ball and by how much. These aren’t your average “little white lie” we’re talking about. These numbers for many were shocking!

Are Your Pants On Fire?

Golfers are liars. Yup, I said it. This game, which is supposed to be all about honor and integrity, is filled with liars.

Let’s back up a bit. When we here at MyGolfSpy were kicking around ideas for our next MGS Labs article, we came upon the question, “How far does the average guy think he hits it (vs) how far does he really hit it?” Through my experience as a club fitter and golf instructor, I felt that I had a pretty darned good idea what the answer was, but, being the data-driven types, we went out to get the numbers.

Testing Procedure

Our study looked like this: We asked 10 golfers of varying ability levels how far they hit their driver (total distance), 5 iron, 7 iron, and pitching wedge (carry only). Then we had each golfer hit 5 shots with each of those clubs on a launch monitor. Testers included: (Pat 15 Handicap) (Dave 23 Handicap) (Michael 13 Handicap) (Tom 5 Handicap) (Rich 18 Handicap) (Mike 30 Handicap) (Joel 13 Handicap) (Dan 17 Handicap) (Danny 8 Handicap) (Meredith 7 Handicap)

The data appears below.

Interesting Observations:

100%…yes ALL testers lied about how far they hit the ball (vs) how far they really hit the driver.
The longer the club the bigger the lie was.
90% of the testers lied about how far they hit the 5-iron.
Out of 200 shots, 116 (58%) were hit outside of 5 yards within their estimate .
There is a definite correlation between handicap and knowing/hitting your distances. Our lowest handicap test subject hit 18/20 shots within 5 yards of his estimate. Our highest handicapper missed his driver estimate by an astounding 86 yards!
There were 11 sets out of 40 where a test subject hit zero shots within 5 yards of their estimate. Surprisingly, the driver had as many as the PW and 7I: two each. The 5I saw five subjects achieve this “feat.”
Our test subjects averaged almost as many shots within 5 yards of their estimate with the 5 iron as with the driver (1.4 vs. 1.3)

So…What Does All This Data Tell Us?

Your Average – Is Not Your Longest Drive

First of all, the average golfer has no concept of what “average” means. Ask a golfer how far they hit their driver “on average,” and you’re going to be told how far their best drives go. Golfers seem to have no recollection of all the drives that sail high and right, only the ones that go long and straight. While Bob Rotella may approve of this from a golf psychology perspective, I think that this self-delusion ultimately does the golfer a disservice.

If you don’t have an honest assessment of how far (and what direction) your ball goes, how can you expect to improve?

For 7-Iron & PW, Golfers Are Pretty Accurate

Second, most golfers were quite successful with their 7 iron and PW. If we look at the pitching wedge data, we see that 8 of our 10 testers hit at least 3 shots within 5 yards of their estimate. In fact, if we remove Dan and Danny, our testers, as a group, underestimated their pitching wedge yardage. If we turn to the 7 iron and remove Dan and Danny again (sorry, guys), the difference between the estimates and actual distances shrinks to a mere four yards. That’s good golf.

Shocking 5-Iron Numbers

Third, the average golfer needs to get rid of his long irons, which seems to include the 5 iron. (Mini rant: Big thanks to the OEMs for the jacked up lofts. You’re really helping the average guy enjoy the game more. (And yes, that’s sarcasm, folks.) Only our 4 lowest handicap players had an average within 10 yards of their estimate, the other 6 hit a COMBINED TOTAL of 1 shot within 5 yards of their estimate. Even if we exclude the two…characters…who missed their estimates by an average of 46 and 47 yards, we’re looking at an average miss of 16.5 yards. That can be the difference between being on the green and giving your ball a bath. You can attribute it to bad technique, lack of club head speed, too-strong lofts, or all of the above, but your average golfer does not hit their 5 iron with enough consistency to take it to the course. What’s worse, the super strong lofts let these guys hit the ball a mile, once in a blue moon, and create the expectation that a 5 iron should always go that far.

Course Management

Fourth, given all that we’ve said above, the average golfer needs to think long and hard about their tee box selection. If we accept the that the average drive is roughly 216 yards and the average 5 iron is 160 (both numbers that are driven up by our low handicappers, but we’ll leave that be), then the average golfer probably should not be choosing tee boxes that put them more than 370 yards away for the average par 4. Similarly, you should be looking at the par 3 lengths. If they’re much longer than 160, what are you going to hit? 200+ yard par 3’s are increasingly common, but that doesn’t mean that they make sense. Is hitting 3W into a par 3 fun?

This information also has a lot of implications for course management. If I know that I’m going to hit my 7 iron the right distance over half the time, and my pitching wedge the right distance almost 75% of the time, I want to play to my short irons. Now, I know it’s not manly to lay up. Top Flite even had an ad campaign ridiculing it. But if the object of the game is to get the ball in the hole with fewer strokes, we have to consider that hitting a long iron into a well-protected green is not a great play for most golfers.

Moral: Be Honest With Yourself

Ultimately, what we’d like you to take away from this “Lab” report is the following: be honest with yourself. Go to the range, or, even better, get on a launch monitor, and find out how far your clubs actually go. Not “how far they went that one time when it was downhill, downwind during the drought of ’89,” but how far you hit an AVERAGE shot. And build your game around that. Or get some professional instruction so that you can hit it better. Or get your clubs fit. Just don’t be a liar.

Want To Read More “MGS Labs” Articles? – CLICK HERE

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Driver Ping G30	Hybrids PXG 0317
3/4 IRON PXG 0311XF	5-GW Srixon Z 565
SW PXG 0317	LW PXG 0311
Putter EVNROLL

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comments

Join The Discussion

Kenny

7 years ago

A lot of great comments in here.

I used to keep records of my driving averages when playing courses, figuring out as best i could what they were,

What i notice is the AVERAGE is way WAY less than best.

My average was usually just over 300, which is long, but way shorter than i would expect if someone just asked me for a number without me keeping notes.

I was the longest hitter in my club, my region and never in all my golfing days have i played with a longer hitter (Tried longdrive and could put up 200mph on a Trackman (Not good enough)

So when i see people saying I AVERAGE 300, OR 320 i really have to question it, i was a 3 handicap and was undoubtedly the longest hitter in Scotland for a few years.

I did average 300, but not much more, but without notes and obsessing i would have sworn i would be close to 350! Not due to exaggeration or wanting to lie, just poor human judgement!

P.S. swing is way slower now as i stopped caring about distance.

Just remembered how misleading launch monitors are and how companies manipulate figures to keep the poor info alive.

At my fastest i could swing 141mph on a trackman… FASTEST SWING.

Went to a golf show where 3 manufacturers in a row claimed my swing to be mid 150s (TOTAL B.S.) this is is like telling a sprinter who knows he runs 10.1s (i.e. not good enough but good) you just ran a 9.6!

Could not believe it they were basically all saying you are swinging 10% faster than you have EVER swung a longdrive club with our STANDARD equipment! in otherwords their reading were adding close to 40 yards to my drive distance. Complete fraud if you ask me!

Kourt

8 years ago

This is such a big issue and a great article. I’ve been a scratch golfer since high school and competed in college. I’m now 30 years old. I play regularly and do a lot of speed training. I live in Utah so elevation helps but I swing about 122 mph with driver when I’m working on my game. I have solid contact and play a 43.5 inch 11 degree loft driver. I hit the ball 50-60 yards further than most people I play with an I’m usually hitting it 290-310. Most amateurs think they hit it 280. It just makes me laugh. I used to hit an 8 degree driver and could get it out there 340 but I found trouble a lot. Now with the shorter driver I’m in good position off the tee and rarely hit it out of bounds. This game is all about distance control. If you don’t know your numbers how can you possibly make appropriate decisions. I hit a regular 8 iron about 165 but if I’m 160 to a back right pin I’ll hit a 7 iron and hit a low cut that only flies 155 but can get to that back right pin that I couldn’t cut an 8 iron too. Every golfer needs to go find an open field with a dozen of the balls they play with and hit each club 12 times throw out the furthest and shortest shot and average the other 10 to get their actual average distance and also note the furthest and shortest shot to know their limited for best case and worst case scenario.

Bruce

Doc

10 years ago

Well it was once said that if an average golfer with a registered handicap played a pga rated course by the rules, they’d add 10 strokes to their supposed score/handicap. I believe it is true.
I’m in the golf repair/building business in my retirement and see this stuff all the time. It’s actually humorous. Guy talks on tee one about the last time he played the course and shot an 88. His tee shot barely makes it past the women’s tees. By the end of the first 9 holes he complaining about his clubs letting him down, he’s never shot this bad in his life. He’s 15 over so far. It’s really quite funny. I’ll never be able to hit the ball like I want to or like many of you post you can do here. I just keep up with a +1, 0, -1 (bogey-par-birdie) score keeping method and remain happy to see many ‘0’s on my card if I am fortunate that day. As long as there are no 2’s I feel pleased!lol

Snow

10 years ago

If the average golfer hits his driver 140m into the woods with a huge slice, that’s still not what he’s going to step up on the tee to do when he gets his driver out. He’s trying to hit that perfect straight or drawing long shot he does once every 20 shots, when the wind is in his favour and the fairway is baked.

And most golfers simply don’t know better. The markings on the driving range are fairly useless if you don’t hit them directly it’s hard to judge how close or far they were from that tiny marker 150-250m away from you. Even the distance posts in the fairway are quite erratic. The only reality check i trust somewhat, is distances marked from tees. That way i know that i can hit my 6 iron across the lake at that one hole we got. Meaning it has more than 150m carry on a decent hit. On a good hit it will land and stop on the green (middle 161m), otherwise it may hit the fringe and roll across the green. (170ish to bunker behind green)
Now, i could go and always hit 5 iron based on the chance that i’ll misshit the 6i into the lake. But then i’ll be over the green on a good hit, and a bad hit will still be wet. Or lay up to the right, across the shorter portion of the lake, with a wedge (and still be wet, by hitting a hook or a fat/thin shot)
Now, what would be the point to not strife for repeating or improving on that good hit you know is in a certain club? Everything else is compromising. It may even make you play worse, if you always club up a step and your best shots end up being 10m long of the target, in whichever trouble lurks. It’s conditioning you, and habit forming. Do yourself a favour, and try to play the best golf you can, and stop compensating for mistakes before you have made them.

John

9 years ago

You want to give yourself the best opportunity to score. The Pin position would give you various distances so in reality you could have a front position that a six is the correct club or a back position that is 15-20 yards longer and a five is the correct club.

I want to be pin high or longer as I have seen very few shots that were short have a chance to go in the hole. I would rather by 5 yards long than 5 yards short.

Andy

8 years ago

I just laser the back netting and proceed to smash my driver out the back…
or out the left side
or out the right side…
but whatever happens, the ball never ends up in the range ;-)

Mike

10 years ago

To note, my opening sentence I meant to say I hit the ball fairly “well across the board”.

Mike

10 years ago

I hit the ball fairly week across the board and if lucky get one to around 270-280 and once in a blue moon 300. But I’m about 220-240 average. What really opened my eyes to distances was a laser rangefinder. I think guys who go off the scorecard or driving range listed distance to the pins over estimate by 10-30 yard easily. For example, I was at my home range today and until recently purchasing a laser range finder I would have thought I was hitting my old Mazuno mp37 blades about 180 for a 7 iron. When I dialed in with the range finder I was only about 135-145 on average with a few 150 sprayed in here and there. But with my normal 85% swing I was between 130-140 depending on angle iof attack. My 6 iron speed is about 80 mph which according to charts puts me more inline with the 130-140 I was hitting than the 170-180 the range listed. Now I must say that before I switched back to blades amd smaller club head sized irons that I was playing super game improvement irons that I no donut was hitting a 7 iron 160-170. But the lofts on those were a full 1 club stronger than my blades and were nearly impossible not to hit far. Problem with those clubs is I got lazy and my orn game went to crap. I see people say all the time it’s not right to play blades if you are a high handicap. To them I say bologna. Just because someone is a high handicapper doesn’t mean they can’t strike an iron well. Most ny problems consist of driver and hybrid problems as well as puttin. I can shoot 85-95 with blades just as I do with the super game improvement irons. Sure if someome can’t get the ball off the ground they should not jump into blades or a gamer iron. But if they can constantly strike the ball to get a good launch I firmly believe a player iron or blade will only help them in the long run should they choose to put in a little work at the range. My buddy who gave me the mp37 laughed when I told him I’m going to learn to play with them. He’s a 6 hamdicap. He was blown away when I was hitting darts at the pin on anything 150 in. Now I can’t stand to address a ball with anything bigger than a small cavity back with a thin line. Anyway, that’s my rant. Enjoy golf!! Sorry for tr typos. I’m on the iPad.

joseph

11 years ago

i love reading these posts. the point of the article was about how golfers lie about how far they hit the ball. i like the guy who says he carries the ball 280, which is further than most pga pros. are you kidding me! i’ve played with plus handicaps, caddied for a guy who played on the web.com tour, and used to regularly play with a guy who was 6’6″ 280#s and was by far the longest driver i’ve ever played with, and he might catch one that carried 280 once every few rounds. i carry the ball about 240 and i’m tall and strong and practice all the time. my swing speed is always between 100-103. i have an fairly efficient swing.

i practice at one of the busiest ranges in the country. it has about 100 stalls. you can go out there for a full day and watch hundreds of golfers practice and you might see one guy, one time carry the ball and hit the 250 fence. (granted it’s slightly uphill and beat up range balls). i’ve only seen it a couple times. one was when the los angeles open was going on and we had future pros from all over the country practicing. another was KJ Choi, and another was one of the teachers who has been a touring pro. i never hit the fence. my max carry is about 248. (and believe me, i’ve pulled out a callaway Hot ball to see if I could, i still can’t hit!)

btw – who cares about average distance. we should be talking about MEDIAN distance. if your dispersion is go great that your average is meaningless, than you shouldn’t bring that club to the course. as much as it pains me, anything higher than a 6i for me doesn’t have a meaningful average because i just don’t hit it consistently enough. sure, i can deloft a 5i and hit it 195 one out of three times, but will i pull out my 5i on a par 3 over water? hell no! i’m pulling my 3 hybrid. if i crush it, it’ll carry 215. if it hit it normal, it’ll go 195-200.

get real!!!!

p.s. look at the lpga. a lot of these ladies are like us. they play courses under 7000 yards, with reasonable green speeds and reasonable rough, and they carry the ball around 215-240. where we differ is that they are smart enough to use hybrids and check their egos. and they score under par consistently! i’ve never shot under par, and i can hit a pitching wedge 140. so what!!!!! i can also duck hook at driver off the tee because i’m so pissed that tiger is out driving me by 50 yards.

Sheffield

11 years ago

So while on the topic of launch monitors and the variation scene from different devices… I tend to use the Flightscope trajectory optimizer to gauge what a certain set of launch conditions will produce. So I decided to plug into the optimizer the same launch paramters reported by an actual Flightscope results from a Rick Shiels head to head comparison.
Flightscope (Rick Shiels): ball speed: 151.8 Spin: 3150 Launch Angle: 12.5 Carry Dist: 227
Flightscope Trajectory optimizer: ball speed: 151.8 Spin: 3150 Launch Angle: 12.5 Carry Dist: 251.7
Difference= 24 yards or so.

LM#1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPfTjjik5gY
LM#2: Used Flight Scope Trajectory Optimizer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPfTjjik5gY

Any thoughts on why this may happen?

Tony Covey

11 years ago

Doc

12 years ago

I agree with the writer of this article and experience it every time I go out to play a round. If I believed everything someone told me, I’d be playing with a touring pro! But they never live up to what they say they ‘usually do’. I’m old, and broken, will never hit the ball long, so I have learned to hit it straight and my short game can be awesome for an old man IMHO. My 5 iron (or actually my 5hybrid which has the same loft as my 5 iron used to) is my standard. 150 yards is where I can always reach without fail, and it sticks like a lawn dart on the green. From there I work my clubs longer or shorter depending on the shot. I don’t use a driver, I use a 3 hybrid off the grass on the tee box and use it and my 4 hybrid in the fairways. I don’t need anything else since 2 shots will get me from 440 to 475 and I can stay in the fairway. From here there is not green out of reach with a short to medium approach shot. I accept my limitations and play within them so I don’t get into trouble. Sure, sometimes I’ll knock the snot out of one and surprise myself, but I never figure that into my known shot distances for my clubs because I know my limitations. And sand traps, I heard a guy named Pennick tell a guy that asked him how to get out of a sand trap. Pennick simply said ‘I can’t teach you to get out of them, but I can teach you how to not get in them in the first place.” Great advice and I’ve always played safe shots and stayed within what I know I can do and not what I believe I must do. Works for me.
Doc

JDM

12 years ago

I have a USGA index of 1.1 based upon a the golf course I play regularly. The total distance on the scorecard for the tees we use is 6400 yards. Depending upon conditions the course can play either shorter or longer. I know from using the Trackman launch monitor that my maximum club head speed with a driver is 95 mph and that my maximum carry is 239 yards. Using a dozen tee shots, my average club head speed is 92 mph with a corresponding carry of about 225 yards. Yet when I hit a reasonably good tee shot, most people will tell me that I hit the ball 280 or more yards. When I respond that my tee shot carried “only” about 225 yards, they tell me that I’m crazy!!!! I do not hit my irons far at all, usually because I seldom make a full swing with an approach shot. Normally from 150 yards to the pin (not to the front edge of th green) I will swing about 75%-80% with a six iron. The objective of an approach shot is to get the ball hole high to set up a potential birdie. If I had a dollar for every time I have seen players using eight and nine irons from the position from which I am hitting a six iron, I would be independently wealthy. Additionally, I can honestly say that 99.99% of the time those players swing too hard with the result that they hit poor shots which finish far short of the putting surface. Later they will boast that they used a nine iron from the same distance where I used a six iron!

PJCedog

12 years ago

This puts the pros 300 yard plus driving averages into perspective and seem even more amazing. These yardage exaggerations also remind me of the agony of being stuck behind a group of 20 to 30+ handicappers playing the back tees ahead of me on a busy weekend afternoon.

Jim

12 years ago

I work in a golf shop and sold a customer a GPS. He returned about 2 weeks later and asked me to send the unit back to the company to be recalibrated because he was certain that he hits the driver consistently around 285 yards and his unit was indicating that he was only hitting it 220. After all of you stop laughing please respond if you will. Thanks. Jim

12 years ago

Everything in golf is “relative”. Simple test, go to a Golf Galaxy or other shop where they have some form of measurement. Try some “older” drivers like a 2-year old model still being sold (Callaway Razr) and see what you get distance wise. Then try the new Razr Fit. It’s longer and you will see similar results with TM older models as compared with their new RocketBalz. Then test the range balls they have in the store at the simulator against some tour ball you regularly use. Your tour ball will be longer. Then have the store set up some swing speed monitor (radar is best) and see what your swing speed is. The phrase “silk purse from a sow’s ear comes to mind”. With all the technology you can buy in shafts and clubs and balls you simply cannot overcome the physics of your swing speed. We can all learn to swing a tad harder (faster) but we cross a threshold where speed becomes less efficient due to a poor swing where the resultant swing path/face angle produce unwanted direction and spin as well as off-center hits because simply “we lose control”. Thus we need to determine an optimum swing speed we can control. So if your swing speed is say “90 MPH” the rules of physics just won’t allow a well struck (sweet spot) hit to travel beyond a carry distance of “X”. The variables will only be if you reduce your carry with “spin”, “launch angle”, “weather conditions” (wind, temp), and fairway conditions (downhill/uphill, dry/hard/wet/long grass, etc). The last mitigating help you can provide yourself is a properly fitted club/ball as I stated above. I swing at around 100MPH and found the “Fit Tour and RocketBalz Tour” provided an extra 15-20 yards over their older models and that “did” shock me. As for lying, that won’t work out on the course since your playing partners can easily see what club you play and can estimate the carry to the hole less the hole length. The math gets pretty automatic after a while. I am easily 2-3 clubs shorter than my son but ultimately what matters most is who has the shorter putt.

Tnam

12 years ago

This is a great article, since I have owned a GPS (watch) I have had to eat some reality over how far I hit the ball but knowing the reality has helped my game a lot.

I know from what my watch is telling me I am a very short hitter compared to the internet, fortunately I actually play golf too and I’m happy that I’m hitting the ball further than the vast majority of the people I play with :)

Augustine Fan

12 years ago

excellent article!

When i was first measured on a launch monitor for a fitting at PING 3 years ago, I learned bout carry vs total distance. I’ve always hit 7-iron from the 150-yard marker for approach shots and the launch monitor revealed that my actual carry was 139 with 10 yard of roll given the relatively lower trajectory of my iron swing.

I learned so much from this because i used to hit a lot of golf balls into the water or bunker when the GPS tells me i need only to hit 140 to clear the hazard not realizing my actual 7-iron carry is just short! I’ve always thought that I just didn’t hit that particular shot well when in reality I needed to hit 140 CARRY.

12 years ago

I love the guys who blindly claim “I hit it an average of 250”. I don’t, my carry is on average around 200, total distance 220. Yes I hit some big ones every now and then that might make it 250.

My yardages
Driver 220 – 235
3 wood 200 – 220
18* hybrid 190 – 210
3 iron 190 – 200 maybe
4 iron 180 – 190
5 iron 170 – 180
6 iron 160 – 170
7 iron 150 – 160
8 iron 140 – 150
9 iron 130 – 140
PW 120 – 130
54* SW 100 – 110
60* 70 – 80

All are plus and minus depending on wind, elevation changes and arthritis. But that’s the numbers I carrying on the back of my GPS.

billb

12 years ago

you hit a 3 iron as far as a 3 wood? why carry the 3 wood?

Joe Perez

12 years ago

Most golfers think about the best shots they’ve ever hit when claiming their distances.

I was guilty of this until I started using a SkyCaddie GPS, tracking the distance of my drives, as well as noticing if the iron I was hitting was the “right club” according to the yardage given by the GPS.

For all the benefits golf GPS devices provide, the most important thing you’ll learn is how full of crap you are about how far you think you hit your driver, or *carry* your irons.

revkev

13 years ago

When I was playing a lot in competition, I played more than a few courses, in fact, that included a stupendous number of bunkers and water hazards that would _never_ come into play for the longer and younger hitters, but which would make the course almost unplayable for a good 60-year-old–courses where that player would have to three-shot almost every par-4, where on some holes there was literally no bailout area where a shorter hitter could go, etc. We used to call it “booga-booga” stuff–the kind of bunkering and water placement that was just decorative for a longer hitter, but which would absolutely blow up the score of anybody else, the kind of course where the guy who shoots 75 with appropriate tees at home would go and shoot 100, then come home and talk about how “scary” the course was and how “you don’t want to play it, believe me.” That strikes me as a kind of really stupid bullying approach to course design for which I have no respect whatsoever. You want to bully somebody, bully the long hitters and plus-handicappers. Taper in the fairways. Include a couple of 340-yard par-fours that are easy to play as two-shot holes, but include big rewards and heavy penalties for people trying to drive the green. That kind of thing.

Bottom line, this is a _game_, and I think a lot of people have forgotten that. I see it in the way people have responded for years to stuff like Tiger’s cursing on camera in front of millions of kids, etc.; the usual defense is that “that’s just how it is these days; people in other sports do it; you have to get used to it; that’s where the culture is.” I mean, if a person came to golf as just another pro sport, or became a fan through Woods’ celebrity, that’s how he’s going to think. And he’s probably going to think courses should be big and intimidating and punish the guy who doesn’t have tour-pro length, so we can all recite how “these guys are good” and do our due worship and all that. But the rest of us–and from your posts I can guarantee you’re in the “us”–know that this is not what golf really is, or ever was. It’s not just another pro sport. It does have different standards. It does matter who you are and how you act. And it ought to be pleasant and positive and character-building, even for competitors. It ought to include players rather than cutting them out and beating them down strictly on the basis of distance limitations. And it ought to reward skill within any particular distance category.

Sorry, but you really did get on one of my favorite subjects here…

revkev

13 years ago

It’s why Pete Dye is my favorite architect – he builds courses with shots from every tee in mind – it’s ingenius – one set of hazzards are for the golfer from the middle tees and the pro on the back tee never sees them – but there is another set out of sight and mind for the guy on those middle tees that just stare the pro right in the face.

Dye also builds courses that are extremely long from the back but he does so to provide options for course set up that take into account wind direction and variety – that’s another bugaboo of mine – so often we are subject to the mowing guy, who pulls out the tee markers, mows the tee and puts them back in a new spot with little regard for the course conditions that day. It could be so much fun if the course were set up creatively – a 250 yard par 4 with great risk reward so we get to see what it’s like to face that sort of challenge.

Sadly my least favorite course architects are two of my favorite golfers Palmer and Nicklaus. Palmer always has some ridiculous trick up his sleeve that has nothing to do with the game being enjoyable for the average hitter and Nicklaus – well there’s nothing to any of his courses so long as you have that 280 yard high fade down the middle every time and then the high approach to the elevated greens that he always builds in. The one exception there is the New Course at Grand Cypress but that’s a replica course and not an original design.

Florida golf association sets up courses at 6,500 yards for its senior amateur championships – between 6,200 and 6,500 is perfect for me – I’ll use all of my clubs, be challenged, have a chance to shoot a low score and to finish my round in under 4 hours, in fact closer to three and a half –

How we can get those in charge of course set up and those who play the game to realize that it can and should be fun is beyond me but it’s got to happen sometime, some day.

stephenf

13 years ago

Yeah, Dye uses alternative tees really well, I agree.

As for Palmer and Nicklaus…I don’t know much about Palmer designs, but I do know in addition to the stuff you’re talking about with Nicklaus (who happens to be pretty much personal idol in just about every way), he also tends to move a lot of earth and do a lot of artificial sculpting, which just drives me crazy–not because it’s difficult, but because I hate it. I really like the traditional kind of courses you used to see (and still do, mostly) in places like the Northeast and Midwest, where you scope out a piece of land with good possibilities and then mostly use existing natural features where you can. IMHO, the experience of the greatest courses involves as little artificiality as possible, but I admit that’s a personal preference.

revkev

13 years ago

As an adendum I got out and played today – wooo hooo!!!!! Kept my driving average on the phone GPS – we had 1.5″ of rain last night, it was 92 and very humid so the ball was not travelling well – I played a course with a course rating of 72, slope of 135 6,500 yards. I live in Florida so this was at sea level – another words it was the ideal day to get a true idea of how short I really am. I did – I averaged 236 yards on 12 drivers with a long of 256 (found a firm spot on the fairway downwind) and a short of 220. I hit all of them fairly solidly (I would have expected 245 or so but again there was very little roll because of the rain and puddling.)

More importantly I made 3 birdies and shot 38-35 73 – really played well on the back which is normally the tougher nine. Putted great and drove the ball in the fairway all day.

stephenf

13 years ago

Do you have anybody left to play with, or do they all know you play this way?

You could just roll around to different courses, pop your 236-yarder out there a few times on the range, let the big hitters salivate and give you strokes for a few bucks, and then go clean them out. Or maybe you already do that. ;-)

revkev

13 years ago

I’m a preacher – I’d never do such a thing. :)

Actually there are enough good players around here that you aren’t likely to pull anything over on anyone – I do respectfully well in the money games that I play in – I don’t play for huge stakes but love the ones that include skins and perhaps a dollar a dot you know dots for winning a hole, a birdie, a sandie that kind of thing. There’s a really nice regular game on fridays at the local muni that I love to play in and friday is typcially my day off so it fits.

I finished 5th in the St. Pete Senior Amateur last October so it’s pretty hard to be too under the radar. My goal is to win that sucker this season – having a total set eval, getting several clubs reshafted and taking a lesson on distance control from inside of 100 are a part of that goal – so far it seems to be paying off.

stephenf

13 years ago

Oh, yeah…Florida…I should’ve been paying attention. Pretty tough competition down there no matter what level we’re talking about. Really well-known tour pros fail to make the U.S. Open every year when they try to get through qualifying in FL (as I’m sure you know).

See, when I hear a guy talk about getting lessons on distance control over 100 yards, I know I’m talking to somebody who is serious and smart about bringing scores down.

mikerio

Exhibit A…..

Todays leader in DRIVING DISTANCE at the Crown Plaza
Kyle Stanley

348.5
yards

Dace

13 years ago

Worked on the European Tour for one season and the driving distances were based on Two holes going in opposite directions. Distances driven were added and divided (x2) and that was the driving distance for players. These were on straight long Par4’s or Par 5’s .

Jim

13 years ago

Great article. I just have to go out and get that Launch monitor to make sure that I hit it right.
Love the thought and reviews.

stephenf

13 years ago

Ridiculous. Launch monitors are notoriously inaccurate when compared with real-world yardages. I used to play to a plus-2 level and played with quite a few pros, top-shelf amateurs, etc., and it was absolutely routine to see paced-off distances, marked distances, etc., in a huge mismatch with whatever showed up on the launch monitor. I played with one pro, for instance, who was a shortish but very straight hitter–“shortish” in the sense of usually hitting it around 260-270, paced off, under various conditions, over and over, for a period of several years. He could pop one out there 310-320 at times, but his standard shot was the 270 or so. Hit his 5-iron 180-185. Saw it for years. He gets on a monitor, hits a few absolutely in the screws, ball marks right on the sweet spot, and the monitor show him hitting driver about 220 total, and the 5-iron something like 148. I played tournaments with the guy for years and literally not once did I ever see him hit either club those distances. As a moderately long hitter, I had much the same experience, with monitor distances being off by at least 20%, often more. I don’t even bother anymore.

13 years ago

I agree, both would help, with the real-world conditions a check on the monitor–or, if you’re confident in the accuracy of the monitor, I’d still make decisions based on both. I don’t object for a minute to the use of an _accurate_ monitor; in fact, you can get specific measurements of spin rate and launch angle (for instance) that I think are invaluable and that will be hard to intuit from hitting a ball out on the range or the course until you’ve hit a _lot_ of balls under varying conditions. What I object to is 1) obviously and grossly inaccurate monitors (I’ve seen more than a few), and 2) this process in which golfers are expected to go in and dutifully plunk down hundreds of dollars for clubs based on the numbers on a monitor, without ever having seen the real flight of a real shot even once, because “we don’t have demo clubs, sorry.” Rrrrrr.

stephenf

9 years ago

Also: I think you’re being at least equally categorical by saying these monitors are used regularly “because they are very accurate.” How would a tour pro, for instance, know whether or not he was wrong according to the numbers, or exactly what that would mean in terms of the ball flight for this round, or this month’s rounds? Who measures the measurers? How would he know whether the monitor is accurate? We can say with some confidence that monitors give the _impression_ of accuracy. In a process of clubfitting that includes launch monitors but is not limited to them, and which includes money-is-no-object kinds of choices among clubs that will go a helluva long way, hit by professionals who hit it a long way to begin with, and who have a sense of how to adjust for best distance potentials.

I’ve just seen too many cases of players whose games I know really well, for whom one monitor after another not only disagree with each other, and whose on-the-course results aren’t even in the ballpark with what the monitors indicate. I’m talking about monitors that are off by 60 yards or more, when there is nothing about the conditions that would remotely explain it.

So on second thought, I’m going to stick with the “notoriously inaccurate” statement, to the extent that it doesn’t mean “universally inaccurate.” The accuracy is indeterminate; numbers are often contradicted from machine to machine for the same player under same conditions; they very often don’t even come close to representing real-world observations on the course; and so forth. That’s not to say that a theoretically accurate monitor wouldn’t be (or isn’t) a benefit. It would be. The problem is, first, knowing when you actually have one, and how you would know whether or not the monitor is accurate in the first place.

Shaun Cumming

13 years ago

My 6 iron swing speed average according to the Mizuno DNA club is 85 MPH. My driver swing speed on a launch monitor averaged out at 101 MPH. I’m fairly confident that I carry around 240 with my driver and around 160 with my 6 iron but I may be wrong.

revkev

13 years ago

Here’s where I start to become obnoxious because of course there can always be an exception and everyone thinks this a great blog but that it only applies to other golfers and not themselves.

I do know that If a player average in the 285 with the driver he will hit a 5 iron 225 on occasion – down hill, down wind, carry plus roll on firm greens, etc.

But the average 5 iron carry distance for a touring pro is 185 and the average driving distance is right around 290. We see the guys in the final few groups hitting their 5 iron 210 and forget that it landed on the front of a very firm green and rolled out there along with the adrenaline that was rushing and the fact that these are the guys playing the best in the field that week. They are also light years ahead of any amateur in skill level and ability – that’s a good thing – I wouldn’t want to watch myself or others like me on television playing golf.

Why in the world would a group of people who don’t do this for a living think that we can hit our clubs that far? Do we throw 92 mph fastballs and hit 400 foot homeruns? I’ve seen lots and lots of minor league baseball and can’t ever recall seeing a 400 foot home run there – that happens in the majors where the best, most mature players are playing.

So it is in golf – the gulf is as large between a low handicapper and a touring pro as it is between a college baseball player trying to face a healthy Mariano Rivera’s cutter.

If you’re thinking this article isnt’ for you and that trackman is wrong – good luck because you’re in the ondeck circle. And they’re playing enter the sandman.

Golfspy Matt

13 years ago

“If you’re thinking this article isnt’ for you and that trackman is wrong – good luck because you’re in the ondeck circle. And they’re playing enter the sandman.”

This may be my favorite blog comment ever.

GolfSpy T

13 years ago

In defense of the hacker who thinks he hits it farther than he does…to an extent Tour Pro averages are inflated by a number of factors.

First, (unless things have changed recently) Tour driving averages are calculated tee to green, not “as the crow flies”. Essentially what that means is that if a pro cuts a corner, radar may say the ball carried 270, but when distance is calculated for statistical purposes, he’s going to get the equivalent of fairway bonus yards for cutting the corner. 270 of actual carry can quickly become 290 of statistical “tee-to-green” distance.

Another consideration is that many of the holes used for determining averages (tour statistics are based on a few specific holes on every round, NOT every drive hit during a tournament) play downhill. Everybody gets more yards when hitting downhill. Obviously if you’re hitting downhill more often, your numbers will be inflated.

Finally, tournament fairways are often mowed much shorter than what we play at our local clubs. The end result is that unless you launch the ball on the low end of things, the touring pro will get more roll than the average golfer.

Don’t get me wrong, there are exceptions (Dustin Johnson, Bubba Watson – these guys are playing in another league), but the distance gap between the average Tour Pro and the average golfer with a +/-105 MPH Swing Speed isn’t as wide as the numbers sometimes suggest.

As the saying goes, it’s not how you drive, it’s how you arrive, and in many respects, what happens after the tee shot lands (for the tour guys that’s often in the fairway) is what really separates pros from the rest of us.

stephenf

13 years ago

Mostly right, but a little glurgy. You’re right to say that many amateurs overestimate their ability relative to pros (especially amateurs in the single-digit range). However, speaking as a plus-2 who has won money off pros before, I can tell you–and if you think about this, I’ll bet you know this too–that much of your argument is based on the notion that the difference between a good amateur and a good pro is expressible in distance. This simply is not so. Many good amateurs, college players, etc., are stupendously long, longer even than the average tour pro, most of whom have learned that all-out blasting isn’t all that good for your scores. It is simply not true that a tour pro is more likely to average 305 with the driver than a top-quality Division I player, but you put those two against each other in 10 money matches and the pro will win seven or eight times, maybe more. The real difference is in scoring ability, particularly (in my observation, anyway) the ability to avoid bogeys. I can show you tour stats to back up that observation if you want, but it’s the truth. Nobody averages more than four or five birdies a round, and the best pros don’t back up as much as the others (making bogeys that offset birdies, I mean). In addition, GDigest did a stat analysis years ago that showed the best predictor of score for pros was the ability to hit greens with iron shots (not precisely the same thing as GIR, but close). Then there’s the fact that given the forces generated on a ball, there is virtually no evidence that hitting 7-iron into a green instead of 6-iron is going to result in much improvement to your score. (Cf. John Daly, who was notorious for hitting 165-yard 9-irons 50 feet from the hole.)

I have the same reaction to announcers – don’t they read the stats from shot link? A guy has a 15 footer and they’re telling us he should have made it? Really? The numbers don’t bear that out. I see my friends get down on themselves all the time over this sort of stuff probably because of what they hear on TV. They have no clue that there’s a better chance they’ll three putt from 25 feet than 1 putt – they’re upset that they missed the 25 footer and guess what comes next.

Alright the rain has let up – time to go warm up – I think I tee off at 3:30 now.

Too bad I have to go back to work tomorrow – I can only imagine the pile of emails in that inbox.

stephenf

Sometimes I think I’m in the lower handicap category not because I have a realistic expectation for my game and I work around that constantly trying to improve on my strengths rather than chasing distance that is unobtainable given my age and other physical limitations.

Just be honest with yourself and you’ll be amazed at what happens – it’s no sin to hit a 5 iron from 165 or even 155 into the wind – heck it’s no sin to replace your 5 iron with a 5 hybrid and do the same thing – It’s really nice to collect the cash for the skin you made with that 5 because everyone else in the field hit their 7 into the bunker short. :)

Phana24JG

13 years ago

If you cannot accurately assess your game, your probability of improvement is slim to none.

Dhuck Whooker

13 years ago

I go to the driving range and the half the balls have no dimples, there are no yardages posted, except those big woods signs 100, 150, 200 etc. (but from where?) the grass tees are mowed tall so every shot is a flier.

The local course says the hole is 425 from back tees, but from the back tee to the 150 is only 230 yards. Then the 150 is really 135 to the middle of the green.

How is a poor slug like me supposed to get accurate yardages, other than actual pacing the shot off?

By the way I couldn’t tell you if the putt is 8 ft or 15 ft. There are those guys who say “I just missed a 17 footer for eagle..” How can they tell it was 17 feet?

KFlare

13 years ago

“I average 340…when I catch it clean”

See what I did there? It’s not a lie if you never ask about about my 0.00% rate of clean contact.

I would be interested to see a golfer’s stated handicap compared with most recent scorecards (for those who don’t keep a real USGA handicap). Tougher to get the data, but I’m sure the Golfspies will think of something :)

wdgolf

13 years ago

I’ve had to bite this bullet a few times. As someone else says, there are golf courses that flat out lie to you about the length from the tee box on Par 4s and 5s, making you think you drilled one farther than you actually did.

There’s also the effect of the weather and the course. On the courses the pros play, the fairway is cut so short that anyone would gain significant yards. Play the local muni after a rainy day and your numbers will drop.

That said, when you know your real numbers, then you can start to improve and those numbers you used to think were in your reach become your goals.

jmiller065

13 years ago

Great data, I enjoyed the read. I see this all way too much, I know that people on the forum have to question some of my distance claims I have made and my true distance / swing speed.

I have been on enough LMs and know how golf course score cards are measured to know that the total length of the hole is measured straight up the fairway to the center of the green. So cutting the corner of a dogleg doesn’t give a true number. The ball would have to curve around the dogleg up the center of the fairway to get a true number. Thankfully I like my golf course for this actually, there is not really a dog-leg you can cut a corner on from the tips, you must work the ball and thus getting a good estimate of distance from score card minus the approach.

I think that course management is the hardest thing to learn for a lot of golfers with the ‘manly’ ego mentality. Until you leave the ego at the door and are honest with yourself on your true distance then you can’t have a good course management plan.

Frank

13 years ago

13 years ago

Hey Jacques,

just a thought but your degrees in five and four iron can be off if not premeasured by your fitter (if you have one). I know for a fact just with the driver the manufacturer degree of expectancy on accurate lofts is now up from the 1 degree to around 2.5 or 3 if your two clubs mentions are off this much it could meana full club or you could have two 6 irons in your bag. I purchased callaways a while back directly fromthe manny and the lies fluctuated from 1 Up to 3 degrees flat no consistency.

let us know.

Jacques LeStrap

13 years ago

The iron set i am using was gifted to me from a sales rep. at ADAMS GOLF,,(sight unseen). it’s the older RPM3’s…so how he picked them i’ll never know. What i do know, is that instead of my old-er swing, in which i was hitting through and up, compared to hitting more down and through, i now get more distance than with a set of Ping’s that i got from an old NHL’er i was using,(although, that was with my old swing, and mainly what they did for me was save some of my bad shots from being worse than they could have been). Have you ever heard of any golf outlet,(or the like) “renting” a range finder ? I think that is the only way i will truly compile a better game overall. (nuttin’ a little…or a lot of money wouldn’t solve ‘;’)

…and thanks for your input

Frank

13 years ago

don’t know of any rentals out ther but I woul ddefinitely ge tyour lofts checked first and maybe download a free app those things are normally within a few yards of accuracy. the technology while expensive is vast thorugh PDA devices as well which comes at a lower cost but is still pretty accurate. this wil lput you in the ballpark but i would definitely get those clubs checked and or the simulator………

G Teigrob

10 years ago

I play Adams Golf clubs too…I tend to second guess my distances. I did hit an A7 5 iron 190 and 210 yards but only because that iron plays like a transitional hybrid iron. Otherwise I couldn’t hit the rest of the clubs more inconsistently. See what happens this year when I play the Redlines. Last year I had trouble reaching the par 3s I normally would use a 5 iron but with some alignment adjustment that should improve things.

cdvillasenor

13 years ago

I feel like I’m very consistent with my distances using my gear (clubs and balls) out on the course in neutral conditions. I’m not sure how lying would help. However, I know that if I hit my clubs with range balls on a monitor, I’m a full club shorter on the monitor. I’m not sure if you’ve built that into your model but I know that I can carry my 9-i to nearly 150 on the spot. I trust that on the course and it works for me.

talljohn777

10 years ago

The PGA Tour average carry for a 9 iron is 148 yards.

So, would you like to amend your response???

Alexio

10 years ago

What has the pros distance got to do with it?

There are plenty of single figure handicappers that can hit it as far as the pros. I know I’m not far behind. The problem is none of us have the same accuracy, or the chipping and putting skills which is why we aren’t on tour with them…lol.

G Teigrob

10 years ago

Pros set the standard Alexio. If you can hit a 9 iron consistently 148 yards welcome to the professional tours!

tommytwotoes

10 years ago

I have two friends that hit the ball long.
1 is 6′ 11″ and hits a pitching wedge 150.( a ton of leverage/club head speed with all that hieght. problem is that he might hit his driver 350 but it will be 350 in the wrong direction or in a creek/hazard before kids he considered doing the long drive comps for fun)

1 was a qb in college. he hits a 9 about 150. just a pure athlete that grew up playing golf.

neither are pro golfers…. the qb is a 6 handi and the ex b-ball player is an 11. distance is not the same as accuracy.

Rob

9 years ago

It’s a lot like saying someone who can make left turns without hitting another car should be in NASCAR.

Not to mention the average carry means literally nothing. So what if someone can hit a 9 farther than Rory McIlroy? It doesn’t mean they’re better. The guy has the perfect swing everytime and knows how to win under pressure. But he’s 5’9 and someone with great form, another foot taller, and can put weight behind the ball might be able to bomb one just as far. Doesn’t mean they’re going to win the masters with one great swing.

Kurt

9 years ago

I’m going chime in here. Not trying to start an argument but I watch a lot of golf and stats are really interesting to me, in fact I watch more stats in all sports than I actually watch the games. I bet a lot.
Seems like lots of bloviating going on, some statements may be true, some may not.
It’s not unbelievable to have golfers hit the driver and or 3 wood 250-275.
Happens all the time by pros and non-pros. A good swing, proper contact and a generous bounce and roll. Not that big of a deal getting distance for some.

Hitting it accurately and over and over again, is a different story.

Too much seems to be made about the long sticks.
The game is won, or lost, from150 and in.
The best putter usually wins every tournament, remember I said usually.
The longest driver, never wins every tournament. Ask DJ or Bubba.

What about this young Lee that won this last weekends tournament? Not the longest driver in the group and ended up putting with a wedge for several holes (birdies), WTF?!

The big sticks fine for show, but the real players on tour seem to own the approach shot and the putts. Or so it seems to me. I could be wrong and am not looking to start some kind of argument, just my opinion.

I’m spoke with a pro golfer I knew back in the late 90’s and he said:
Playing a par round of golf won’t win any tournaments on the PGA tour.
We professionals don’t shoot par every round, so why would anyone ever believe the odds are in favor of a non-pro (he explained this as not ever being a PGA or equal pro, Amateur, College player, or European player) just a regular joe shmoe that plays every weekend he can.

He then said:
If he were to take one of these guys out and made them play a rated course from the tips and per rules without exception, he said they’d be lucky to shoot 80 or better.

Now I’ve never shot 80 or better but it seems it would be a huge accomplishment to do this, maybe I’m wrong?

Pros hit more golf balls in a month than most weekend golfers hit in a year, so without the practice I’d bet against anyone that is a regular joe shmoe scoring under 80 if they did in fact play from the championship tees and by PGA rules on a rated course.

I just don’t believe it happens but rarely. But I could be wrong and am aware of this possibility so don’t go verbally chastising me.

I belong to a couple of cc’s and it never fails to be proven when I play a round with friends or golfers I have never met. They don’t count all their strokes, give excuses for doing so, take mulligans, never put out, don’t take penalty strokes for improving their lies, claim a ball was lost ‘in the middle of the fairway’, don’t want anyone riding with them when they mysteriously find their ball?????? (we’ve all know this guy right), has all the instructions in the world for you but takes 7 strokes on a long par 4, claims it was 6 and writes down 4, (we know this guy too don’t we?)

All I’m saying is golf is not an easy sport to play good enough to win on a PGA tour by PGA pros. Weekend golfers on the average don’t play as good as the caddies they use that also play is smaller venues like the Adams or Web.com and we never hear of a caddy making it to the PGA do we?

Lots of fluff out there in golf, gotta weed through the ‘junk’ to get to the truth.

Chris Harman

13 years ago

Most amateurs tend to use the flawed method of measuring their tee shots based on the yardage on the scorecard and the number of yards they have left when their tee shot ends up next to a sprinkler head. I see it all the time. 430 yard dogleg right and you cut the corner. Ball travels 238 yards, but you have 135 left… 95% of golfers will automatically think they hit it 295.

Some people lie for their egos, but I think MOST golfers really have NO IDEA how far they hit their drivers!

John Saborin

10 years ago

I play with someone like that, and seeing as i was hitting my 3 wood further than his driver, i was compelled to buy a Garmin watch, just to see how far i was hitting my 3 wood,(which is normally pretty good ….and i get ribbed for not using it instead of my driver). The only problem with that,(well, 2 actually) is that now, my partner knows how far his driver goes ….except he STILL won’t admit it,(but there is the odd time he uses age as an excuse…pssst…we’re both the same age , lol)

Kurt

13 years ago

Not surprising at all.

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